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Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

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Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#181

Post by Ygg2 »

quitit wrote: post #146
jdewerd wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. Yes, I know that China does most of the refining/assembly, but that has little to do with the chemistry. "Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building…

Let's unpack it then. You've stated: >"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. So let's break it down with some facts (all easily searchable.) (1) The graph states that Australia is the largest producer of Lithium, and states tha…

China doesn't have largest Li deposits. It's a hub area. Perhaps THE hub area for industrial goods.

You didn't really refute GP's point.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#182

Post by hedora »

thebruce87m wrote: post #131
w1nst0nsm1th wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem lies on electric grid capacity. If we're phasing out fossil fuel powered transportation, we will have to upgrade massivelly electricity productions well as in grid capacity.

> The highest peak electricity demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency. > Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle. > In…

The way I think about this is that I use an L1 charger at home that draws 1500 watts about half the time (on a normal day).

That's ~= 15 light bulbs from the 1990's, or roughly 6 desktop PCs. I switched from incandescent to LED bulbs, and a desktop to a laptop, so that's almost enough to offset the EV's usage. Also, we have solar panels, and a house battery that can time shift our energy consumption.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#183

Post by gregwebs »

China is already scaling their sodium battery production from MWH plants to GWH plants. The US has the largest sodium reserves in the world. In depth interview about sodium batteries with a professor that has researched sodium chemistries for a decade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRAJSH_raW8

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#184

Post by hedora »

idontwantthis wrote: post #35
toomuchtodo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that: > Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. So you take up more space, but the storage system is better in every other way (agility, conflict min…

> Natron says its batteries charge and discharge at rates 10 times faster than lithium-ion, a level of immediate charge/discharge capability that makes the batteries a prime contender for the ups and downs of backup power storage. Also helping in that use case is an estimated lifespan of 50,000 cycles. From everything I've read about existing Lithuum battery storage, this is already their strongpoint. Is it helpful t…

For grid storage, it's unclear if faster charge/discharge matters.

We ended up sizing our batteries to meet wattage demands for our appliances. I wish we had ~ 2x as many kWh as we do. Anker has a home battery whose main selling point is that you can add kWh without adding peak wattage.

For use in vehicles, faster charge rates are a big win. Faster discharge probably doesn't matter much for cars (0-60 times are already ridiculously low). They might for drones / planes though.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#185

Post by genewitch »

crazygringo wrote: post #69
MrDrMcCoy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a fatter phone. It actually might be easier for me to hold. I've never seen the appeal of phones so thin I could shave with them.

The appeal is about being able to slide easily into pants pockets (esp. front pockets) without creating big uncomfortable tight bulges. Not as much of an issue with loose men's chinos, but definitely an issue with standard slim men's jeans, as well as with a slimmer-cut chino. And if you want to see if a fatter phone is easier to hold, that's what cases are for. You don't need them to make the phone fatter. In realit…

this is why purses were invented. If you go out in public pay attention to visible phones sticking out of pockets and what sort of person that belongs to.

I just commented on this last night, in fact. Wife's phone half out of her pocket, and it's a smaller iphone than my brick of a 1+, but my phone sits midway down my thigh in my pocket.

I make no judgement on the pants people wear (or don't).

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#186

Post by ForOldHack »

quitit wrote: post #146
jdewerd wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. Yes, I know that China does most of the refining/assembly, but that has little to do with the chemistry. "Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building…

Let's unpack it then. You've stated: >"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. So let's break it down with some facts (all easily searchable.) (1) The graph states that Australia is the largest producer of Lithium, and states tha…

All that is a lot to unpack, but ever since I saw University of Santa Clara use one of these batteries, I have been interested: Yes, ALL your points are both well taken and accurate. The DRC is a disaster in many ways:

https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/from-cobalt-to-cars-how...

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#187

Post by aembleton »

throwitaway222 wrote: post #156
proee wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understood, but even if you are trickle feeding thousands of small houses with say 1kw(max) each, that still requires Megawatts of power. 1k*1k=1M. Therefore, you still need high voltage transmission lines to move this power from the source.

Currently most houses have a instantaneous load requirement of 100kw (some much higher) which means your transmission line size / load requirements are going down 100 fold. That effectively allows us to "dismantle unnecessary high voltage transmission lines". Yes there will still be high voltage lines, (and even the lines that go right up to your property are typically 1000 volts or more, which qualifies for "high vo…

> Currently most houses have a instantaneous load requirement of 100kw

What for? If I were to run a heat pump, car charger, oven and electric shower all at the same time that would be about 25kw

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#188

Post by mschuster91 »

xaellison wrote: post #98
_yb2s wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I missed the 10x charge speed- that is a killer feature that more than makes up for the reduced range.

I wonder what that will mean for charging infrastructure that suddenly has to deliver 10x power to enable that. Not sure that sort of charging could be as ubiquitously placed as gas stations

Not that much, grids can and do deal with highly variable loads all the time, as all the heavy machinery involved in traditional power generation (=generators, gearboxes, axles, turbines) has a lot of inertia that buffers sudden changes.

However, as more and more generation capacity shifts to renewable sources that by design have very small (wind) to zero (solar) inertia, there will be a requirement to build out frequency stabilizer units like the Tesla unit in Hornsdale, Australia [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#189

Post by ForOldHack »

dredds wrote: post #166
jajko wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you are from those places. Ie few years ago we visited Salar de Uyuni, biggest salt flat in the world, properly amazing place. And one of the biggest deposits of lithium. Any form of mining (and you know in Bolivia it won't be eco-friendly unless miracle happens) will destroy at least some aspects of it. And there are massive plans. Now sure not that many species of animals/plants will be affected compared to…

No animals/plants live on arid salt-flats. They pile the lithium salts and let it dry before carting it away. What changes if they also use the sodium?

"Lithium Mining Is Leaving Chile’s Indigenous Communities High and Dry (Literally)

As the metal fuels the clean tech boom, companies race to mine the Atacama Region. At stake: fragile ecosystems, scarce water resources, and ancient ways of life."

https://www.nrdc.org/stories/lithium-mining-leaving-chiles-i...

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#190

Post by genewitch »

AustinDev wrote: post #62
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lowering the power we use, is the only realistic goal. I wear an Apple Watch. On my wrist, is a small, Lithium-ion battery, that contains a great deal of power. That power is trickled out, over time. If it were to all release at once, I'd no longer have a left hand. Packing all that energy into smaller and smaller form factors, increases the risk; no matter what tech we use. Energy is energy. When it comes out quickl…

One little point I want to clarify is that if your Apple Watch battery did indeed short and none of the protections against shorts worked, you'd likely just have a burn on your wrist. 309mAH isn't all that much energy assuming a full charge. I once bridged a ~2,500mAH 18650 battery that was in my bag when my keys created a circuit between the anode and the cathode. The result was a small fire inside my bag that was q…

most, and i do mean most 18650s have a circuit board in the endcap that manages the charging and discharging, so a dead short will generally cause that board to heat up and let out smoke. If you did manage to actually short an 18650 (it's not difficult, remove the plastic on the outside and jam a flathead in between the positive cap and the battery body, where the insulator is), it doesn't just "make a small fire, easily stamped out".

if you'd like i can go dig out a 26650 that i have where i dropped it and the board part popped off; but i am sure there are websites with pictures already.

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