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Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

arstechnica.com

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Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#181

Post by pavel_lishin »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #45
arp242 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have generally found that there's not that much relation between people's stated beliefs and their actual every-day behaviour. By and large, I do think their beliefs are genuine and heart-felt, and that they're not faking them. It's just that it doesn't really influence their daily behaviour all that much. Generally people are motivated by the incentives of the moment, emotion of the moment, and that kind of thing.…

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

> Not everyone professing to be a Christian truly is.*

Ah, so they're Scotsmen.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#182

Post by lazide »

chris_wot wrote: post #179
lazide wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you went to all the trouble of running a post office for years - would you mind ‘losing’ a package or two every once in awhile to pad your retirement?

No.

Then you’re doing better than they expected 10% of their sub postmasters to be doing.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#183

Post by jacquesm »

arp242 wrote: post #60
CoastalCoder wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People often assume that if someone has the "right set of beliefs" (whatever that "right set" is) that they're also a good person. IIUC, there are a few aspects of Christian theology that muddy this issue a bit. I'm probably a bit wrong, so I'd be grateful for any corrections: 1) Christians believe in progressive sanctification. I.e., the Holy Spirit works, over time, to make Christians more like Jesus. So you real…

I wasn't even talking about Christians specifically, or even religion. Just "beliefs" in the broadest possible sense. I don't know if it's better or worse among Christians (or a subsection of Christians) as opposed to anything else (e.g. political affiliation or beliefs). I am hesitant to start listing examples, as I don't want to side-track this discussion too much. I think there's probably a bit of a general assump…

Sometimes it is also used as protective coloration, to blend in and be passed over for scrutiny because of the outwardly visible religious affiliation signalling 'good person here, no need to look any closer'. That's one reason why Catholic priests got away with all their crap for so long.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#184

Post by jacquesm »

akoboldfrying wrote: post #73
nihonthrowaway wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Christian, I have learned to be in my guard when business partners tell me about their Christianity. Or any other way of signaling their self-proported ethics.

My gut feeling: Being Christian is a very weak signal. Telling people that you're Christian (in a context where it's not important to do so) strongly signals a desire for social prominence, which is itself usually a bad sign. I expect this holds for other religions too, I just don't have much experience there.

> Telling people that you're Christian (in a context where it's not important to do so) strongly signals a desire for social prominence, which is itself usually a bad sign.

This happens just about everywhere, including right here on HN.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#185

Post by jacquesm »

dang wrote: post #95

I've attempted to compile the HN threads on this. Can anybody find other significant ones? (It's interesting that there was one submission, with one comment, in 2012, and seemingly nothing for the next 7 years...) Fujitsu CEO Deposition – Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39059302 - Jan 2024 (1 comment) Fixing Horizon bugs would have been too costly, Post Office inquiry told - http…

It's interesting to read through these chronologically.

Thank you very much for compiling this list!

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#186

Post by jacquesm »

So, when your new software system identifies fraud where none was seen before the onus is really on you to check, recheck and triple-check your results before you start ruining people's lives. Those working on the present crop of AI classifiers should take note because those too can, will and probably already are being used to figure out who to target for surveillance, perform facial matching and will likely be embedded in AI based legal software. We're not that far from 'computer says guilty' and even if it isn't the computer that says so directly all it needs to do is give the wrong kind of person enough cover that they believe they are doing the right thing.

Something very similar happened in the Netherlands with the tax office and I suspect that if and when the IND here gets turned inside out we'll find a lot more of this sort of stuff.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#188

Post by optimalsolver »

kelnos wrote: post #123
nabla9 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? It was not justice department (aka Crown Prosecutor) prosecuting those people. In UK private prosecution for crimes is possible. Probably a major reason for this kind of bullshit goes on.

Wait, "private" meaning a non-government entity such as a corporation can prosecute someone, without any involvement of the public justice system, and send people to jail? I assume not just any private entity is empowered to do this, but still... Wow, it's bad enough here in the US that we have a private prison system, but that really takes the cake.

>I assume not just any private entity is empowered to do this

Anyone can bring a private prosecution.

Re: Fujitsu bugs that sent innocent people to prison were known "from the start"

#190

Post by IronWolve »

throw7 wrote: post #19

"...witness statements from Fujitsu staff due to be heard in court were then edited by the Post Office..." I hope there is serious jail time and fines for the persons that did this. Bonkers.

I would think re-writing witness statements is a crime.
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