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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#181

Post by daenz »

nollidge wrote: post #165
daenz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what I am learning from this thread is that this is an "untouchable" subject, in that if you do not naturally side with the person's allegations and white-knight for them, you are part of the problem.

No. You're part of the problem if you're part of the problem. That's it. "White-knighting" is a bullshit Orwellian term designed to make sexist assholes feel justified. As though defending against sexism under an assumed name on an Internet message board in order to earn sexual favors from fawning women. No, the real reason I'm "white-knighting" is because I think it's shitty to make people feel uncomfortable for who…

> No, the real reason I'm "white-knighting" is because I think it's shitty to make people feel uncomfortable for who they are.

I don't think you get it. Your "white-knighting" on the internet does so little for the cause you're claiming to be fighting for that it begs the assumption of an ulterior motive. That motive does not have to be "getting sexual favors." It can also be, hey, looking really great and noble and pure to your peers! That's been valuable since the dawn of society.

The best part about all the white-knighting that's happening in this thread is how many people are being zealously villainized for their rational responses. It's absolutely delusional how far words are being stretched and twisted to shove someone over to the side of "the problem" including your twisting of what "white-knighting" is to not-so-indirectly implicate me as a "sexist asshole." Bravo, you deserve a medal for that one.

Re: "Lighten up"

#182

Post by streptomycin »

anon808 wrote: post #156
crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

does your office environment where you can joke around and have fun include racist humor?

Mine does. We have people from a lot of different parts of the world, so there's plenty of opportunities for good fun.

The line between tasteless and tasteful humor is blurry.

Re: "Lighten up"

#183

Post by flatline »

yelsgib wrote: post #148

I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working i…

I agree that the guy is probably suffering from his own insecurities, but the bottom line is that he allowed his issues to place him in a situation of antagonizing a co-worker, probably without any repercussions, which speaks to a general climate of discrimination against women in the workplace. Still, some of your other points are interesting and I feel are valid in a larger context. Zen monasteries in Japan were segregated - women were a minority anyway, probably to a very large extent, but there were women monks, and they were generally not allowed much interaction with the male monks. All discipline among the males fell apart when a woman was in their presence, as the culture really gave them no background for normal interactions between the sexes. The head monks chose to sidestep the problem -- what could they possibly do to address the ills of the society at large?

Re: "Lighten up"

#184

Post by chc »

Tichy wrote: post #127
tptacek wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you OK with being on a team where one of your teammates feels stressed out, defensive, and alienated because of comments being made by another member of your team? Would you be OK with it if the comments were about their personal appearance? Their hair? The quality of their clothing? Their accent? Lots of funny jokes to be had about accents! Are you OK with any of this? No? I didn't think so. Me neither. So what…

What I meant is this: she quit programming because she was in sucking programming jobs. She should have looked for a non-sucking programming job. This is not so much different from what most men in programming jobs experience - being in a job that sucks, and actively having to look for a better one. Edit: maybe I can't relate because my tendency is to quit if I find myself in a job that I don't like. This has happene…

Your comment assumes there is a ready supply of programming jobs that do not suck in this way. I think the point people are trying to make is that there isn't.

Re: "Lighten up"

#185

Post by crusso »

anon808 wrote: post #156
crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

does your office environment where you can joke around and have fun include racist humor?

Not at this company. I was told "white people are crazy" by an african american coworker at a different company a few years back.

I guess that was racist humor. I just LOL'd, though. Maybe because I'm "crazy".

Do you think I should have brought it up with HR instead?

Re: "Lighten up"

#186

Post by guard-of-terra »

pingswept wrote: post #26
crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

Well, male coworkers pick on each other all the time. Even when they have absolutely no incentive to hurt, once there's an awkward situation and they can say something smart - they'll fire.

Most if nor all of humor revolves around something bad happening to someone. That's what funny.

(In normal workplace setting women are actually shielded from that friendly fire because men don't feel as comfortable/can't predict what's OK and what's not)

You want jokes, you have to acquire certain skin thickness. If you don't, then I don't want to work with you. Fun is fun.

Re: "Lighten up"

#187

Post by lifeisstillgood »

Will Schumpter win out here?

Presumably in a perfect labour market competant women will leave companies like this and go work for the non sexist competition

I believe that will be true for companies that do not embrace for example lean product discovery or software as transformative. But I just don't think the labour Market is really perfect enough to make this kind of difference

but even so, start looking at jobsites. You won't change them, and if you leave for good reasons, good employers will understand.

Re: "Lighten up"

#188

Post by [deleted] »

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

[deleted]

Re: "Lighten up"

#189

Post by Nattefrost »

I gotta say I do not feel at all sorry for her. Why? Because I live in Sweden and here the women are always at the center of the light. No one cares about problems related to men any more.

If she'd live in Sweden that would probably never happened since Sweden is the Saudi Arabia for feminism.

Re: "Lighten up"

#190

Post by omgsean »

crusso wrote: post #39
omgsean wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't know how to avoid crossing the line you shouldn't be joking around. The onus is on you, the joke maker, to have a basic understanding of your audience as well as your privileges in society.

Did you see the story yesterday about a teacher being suspended (possibly permanently) for reading Ender's Game to his students because a parent accused the book of being "pornographic"? While I agree that you should be careful about knowing your audience and where the lines are, there are some people who are going to have all kinds of lines in unexpected places. Sometimes, those lines move. Last week, a wry "yo mamm…

Obviously the safe bet is to not crack jokes that may hurt people around you. If you don't know how to joke around without hurting people, don't joke around with your co-workers.
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