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The OpenTF Manifesto

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Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#181

Post by phamilton »

yevpats wrote: post #165
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #142

Actually, can we just kill Terraform? Please? Terraform has a bad design. It's a configuration management tool, first and foremost, and configuration management tools need to do one thing well: fix things. Not just "change state", but functionally, actually fix some software to make it work again. Terraform is really bad at this. It's difficult to configure, difficult to operate, and it likes to find any reason at al…

I think it's not only the issue with terraform but also the underlying infrastructure. AWS should've never have imperative APIs in the first place. Or at least it's time for AWS V2 APIs

Do you consider cloudformation as imperative APIs?

Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#182

Post by DrRobinson »

tedivm wrote: post #15
lijok wrote: post #6

I love it. The list of "pledged companies" is literally just a list of all the offenders that Hashicorp are trying to shake off.

These people have seriously contributed back to the Terraform community. Terraform doesn't have a test suite- Grunt made Terratest, as well as many other tools. These people have seriously contributed back to the ecosystem, in many ways beyond what Hashicorp has done. Beyond that, I know some of these companies tried to be contributors to Terraform itself but were ghosted by Hashicorp. At the same time there's only a…

> Terraform doesn't have a test suite- Grunt made Terratest

They have experimental support: https://developer.hashicorp.com/terraform/language/modules/t...

Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#183

Post by hdaz0017 »

busterarm wrote: post #121
twunde wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the Nomad stack is a direct competitor to k8s, Consul and Vault are both heavily used alongside k8s. In fact, Consul had features that were only for k8s the last time I checked

[flagged]

There is a big difference though Terraform is the out and out winner in its market.

All their other products are at best small x% share of a crowded market or dominated by another product.

Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#184

Post by mardifoufs »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #162
bloopernova wrote: post #125

If any Hashicorp people are reading, can you please tell your middle and senior management that this decision has deeply soured my entire DevOps cohort on continuing to use Terraform in the future. We're already exploring alternatives. Future client projects may not use Terraform at all. Languages and frameworks must remain open or they will wither and die.

> Languages and frameworks must remain open or they will wither and die. Terraform is neither a language nor a framework, and I certainly don't think it will wither and die if they transition to BSL. Case in point, docker's revenue grew by 12x once they started taking control of their code and stopped caring about community. Same with postman or nginx or many other companies.

What? Docker is still completely open source apart from the desktop GUI. The engine and (I'm pretty sure) all components are completely free and if anything, they have pushed for the standardization of the container runtime. Buildkit is free, compose is free, no feature is paywalled apart from Mirantis-centric stuff (not part of docker inc)

You can absolutely bet that they would get dropped like a rock if they moved to changing the engine's license. Even the docker desktop code wasn't ever open to begin with anyways.

Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#185

Post by jen20 »

candiddevmike wrote: post #156
jen20 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Astroturfing"... lol OK. I don't think I've ever made it a secret that I worked for HashiCorp in the early days (leaving in 2017), and have been critical to the point of being banned by the CEO from speaking at HashiConf. Saying "Terraform doesn't have a test suite" is not miscommunication, it is misinformation, plain and simple - the same as most of the other things I have been correcting this week (not least from…

You and the OP are referring to different things. Terraform the codebase has a test suite. Terraform the app does not have a test suite/runner as in a way to run tests against your Terraform files.

It doesn’t have a testing tool built in. No one legitimately understands the phrase “terraform doesn’t have a test suite” to mean anything except “there are no tests”. A runner and a suite are quite different.

Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#186

Post by pa7ch »

AtNightWeCode wrote: post #179
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #142

Actually, can we just kill Terraform? Please? Terraform has a bad design. It's a configuration management tool, first and foremost, and configuration management tools need to do one thing well: fix things. Not just "change state", but functionally, actually fix some software to make it work again. Terraform is really bad at this. It's difficult to configure, difficult to operate, and it likes to find any reason at al…

This is perhaps the most incorrect post you will ever find on HN. I am not a huge fan of Terraform. However, TF is made for infra not config. There are several tools out there to manage config like Salt, Ansible and so on.

Honest question, what do you consider config vs infra? What is infra if not configuring a system to run?

Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#187

Post by thdn »

bloopernova wrote: post #125

If any Hashicorp people are reading, can you please tell your middle and senior management that this decision has deeply soured my entire DevOps cohort on continuing to use Terraform in the future. We're already exploring alternatives. Future client projects may not use Terraform at all. Languages and frameworks must remain open or they will wither and die.

Would you mind to share, those alternatives?

Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#188

Post by Matl »

tootie wrote: post #150
bloopernova wrote: post #125

If any Hashicorp people are reading, can you please tell your middle and senior management that this decision has deeply soured my entire DevOps cohort on continuing to use Terraform in the future. We're already exploring alternatives. Future client projects may not use Terraform at all. Languages and frameworks must remain open or they will wither and die.

I'm not Hashicorp, but I mean look at Docker. They built the most valuable devops tool of the last generation and can barely muster a viable business. Why would Hashicorp give the slightest worry to losing thousands and thousands of non-paying customers? The upside is lots of money and the downside is loss of halo. Honestly, it's an unfortunate game of expectation setting. If I wrote an open letter decrying Salesforc…

> They built the most valuable devops tool of the last generation

'They' as in Docker Inc.? They made it accessible for the masses, which counts for a lot, but they built on a lot of pre-existing Linux kernel tech that other people who envisioned containers put in place before Docker came in and seized on the opportunity.

> can barely muster a viable business.

They perused what proved to be the wrong business model until 2019, nowdays they're more than 'barely' viable.

Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#189

Post by spencerflem »

jaggederest wrote: post #161
bayindirh wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Free Software advocate and supporter, I'm thinking about the answer to this question: - MPL is a weak-copyleft license, which allows companies to grab and run Terraform codebase, provide it as-is (as Terraform), or as white-labeled Terraform compatible feature/layer. This is alright (because license allows this). - These people also contribute their own fixes upstream, which is great, and maintain their own patc…

> But, HashiCorp says that, the thing we develop (i.e. Terraform) is used by others and generate revenue for them, this is great, but we can't generate enough revenue from it to keep the company afloat and continue providing TerraForm development, and sell it as a product at the same time. > What should they do? Suck it up, open source Terraform under a non profit foundation, find a new source of revenue. Or stop dev…

How is them shutting down and them continuing under a closed source licence any different for you?

Re: The OpenTF Manifesto

#190

Post by bastardoperator »

busterarm wrote: post #169
pcthrowaway wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically you're either deploying consul on top of 1-N kubernetes clusters, or Nomad. If deploying on kubernetes, you now have all the problems that come with kubernetes, plus additional problems of trying to get consul working. I spent a week just trying to stand up a federated multi-datacenter deployment of consul on EKS before my company decided it was too much hassle

the OP was suggesting that it's just obvious to use Kubernetes instead of Nomad. I was saying that anyone who operates large scale Kubernetes knows that you will forever be dealing with tuning etcd and fighting to keep etcd alive. It's an underpinning service of Kubernetes. Roblox's outage was related to the intricacies of running consul and mistakes that they made. The point I was making was that I would rather, at…

Until you have 3 days of downtime and end up on a special build of consul that nobody else has while nearly decimating your companies stock price, reputation, and employee morale, the alternatives start looking better. The point I'm making is that it doesn't handle their scale today and that projects with larger communities, support, and usage exist today. No one said k8s was a silver bullet, it's just an alternative to an already failing infrastructure.
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