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“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

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Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#181
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heroin is illegal, though? Still don't understand how the analogy applies to cryptocurrency. >The company could decide the FDA was wrong... But why would they decide this? Since Heroin is, again, illegal.

Would it have helped if she prefaced it with, "Here's a hypothetical about a company wanting to do illegal things..."? The style of argument is akin to Reductio ad Absurdum, taking an absurd position to it's logical conclusion. The "absurd position" here is a company wanting to sell heroin on the open market, and she takes that to the logical conclusion. She could have said "meth", "nuclear weapons", or "dead infants…

Youre completely.ignoring the fact that "heroin is illegal" is cut and dry. Securities are not illegal. Selling them without a license is. Asking them to clarify the law and getting told "the law is clear" is not in any way the same as selling heroin knowing it is illegal.

Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#182

I stopped reading the article when it started comparing cryptocurrency exchanges to the business of selling heroin. No matter your opinion on the issue, that's just alarmist nonsense. I agree that it's reasonable to apply existing securities laws to cryptocurrency, and I agree that "but they let us go public" is a bad argument, but Gensler's SEC has also been intentionally obtuse about how those securities laws shoul…

If you actually read the UK crypto bill[1] rather than what Coinbase says about it, you find that it's quite restrictive.

"The government’s view is that cryptoassets and the activities underpinning their use should follow the standards expected of other similar financial services activities, commensurate to the risks they pose, while harnessing potential benefits of the technology behind them."

...

"HM Treasury proposes to capture cryptoasset activities provided in or to the United Kingdom."

...

"For cryptoasset issuance and disclosures, the government proposes to follow a similar approach to that for securities and apply regulation when the asset is admitted to trading on a regulated cryptoasset trading venue and therefore becomes exchangeable for fiat currency, or subject to a public offer."

...

"The government considers public offers of cryptoassets – including ICOs where a fund raiser creates new tokens and sells them to investors – may meet the definition of a security offering"

...

"In practice many cryptoasset exchanges play a central role in the cryptoasset ecosystem – conducting many more activities than solely operating a trading venue (e.g. custody, post-trade activities, proprietary trading, lending and admission of cryptoassets to a platform). Some venues may also issue their own native cryptoasset or act as intermediaries for the distribution of stablecoins. This is sometimes referred to as “vertical integration” or “agglomeration”. Accordingly, the government expects, as a minimum, that these entities follow rules covering all of these activities – not just those relevant for operating a trading venue. To illustrate, a major cryptoasset exchange would be required to comply with the issuance and disclosure rules for assets that they admit for trading (Chapter 5), the rules relating to the operation of a trading venue (Chapter 6) and certain surveillance and reporting requirements to detect and prevent market abuse (Chapter 9). Additionally, and depending on the sorts of activities they undertake, they would also need to comply with rules for market intermediaries (Chapter 7), cryptoasset custody rules for cryptoassets which they safeguard or safeguard and administer (Chapter 8) and rules for operating a cryptoasset lending platform (Chapter 10)."

All this is close to what the SEC requires. If it works like a security, a broker, or an exchange, it's regulated like a security, a broker, or an exchange.

This is probably more "clarity" than Coinbase wants.

[1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that’s not the case. Coinbase wants CLARITY. The SEC does not give any guidance, response, or anything related to this issue. At the same time it’s a laat struggle between the SEC and the CFTC. The SEC messed up for years but not protecting consumers against fraud. Now they’re trying to prove their reason existence / gov funding. In one of the (I think MIT lectures 2018) videos, btw? Gensler stated that [probably…

Coinbase has clarity. The SEC is saying "What part of 'no" did you not understand?"

But the SEC has never told them no. They've said "we don't know, you'll find out if we ever sue you."

Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#184
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post comments that don't contribute anything to the discussion.

[flagged]

My comment pointed out that they outright refuse to state which ones fall into which category. That is a 100% factual statement and highly relevant to the discussion.

If you'd like to provide a rebuttal to that, be my guest. But childish swipes that don't address the point being made are just that... childish.

Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#185
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because they also argue the weapons are not illegal. Your analogy implies they said "yes they are securities", and they definitely didn't do that.

But they are securities, it's a completely absurd stance to pretend they're not...

The SEC apparently won't decide if Ethereum is a security so it seems pretty complicated to me. I'm not going to insist the answers are obvious in such a legal minefield.

Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#186
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TIL to stop reading the top voted comment if it appears to be outrage and just read the article for myself instead. Just FYI here's the quote in context. She's posing a hypothetical here and not actually comparing Coinbase to a heroin dealer. This is very much in the style of Matt Levine at Bloomberg, btw. If a company went to the FDA and said “hello, we’d like to start selling heroin to the public for recreational u…

She's comparing cryptocurrency to heroin. The parent's point stands.

The article's comparison is made on potential legality.

Reading the comment, you'd think the comparison was on harm or lethality.

Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#187
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A congressman asked gensler face to face if ethereum is a security and gensler declined to answer. So no, the SEC has not been clear.

It suggests bad faith to ask why the SEC didn't crack down earlier. Sure, it was politics, but it seems entirely understandable. We all know that before the crypto bust, a lot of people would've been starting a witch hunt if the SEC had tried to enforce the law. Congress, for starters. Gensler is being opportunistic now because that's the reality they have to work with. The wealthy and powerful in this country take i…

Huh???

The SEC decides when, what, and for whom it enforces rules?

Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say your understanding is true. The whole point of regulations is to make various business models impossible. The job of the SEC is to enforce the existing regulations and the job of lawmakers to (maybe) change the regulations if they think it's important to make this type of business possible in the US. In doing so they have to weigh potential benefits and harms caused by doing so. The guiding priciples behind the S…

> Either way, it's not the job of the SEC (Securities regulator) to decide coinbase gets a free pass to ignore securities regulation in this case because the existing regulations make their business model impossible. I guess that's the job of congress, then. I think the SEC Stabilization Act is an excellent start. There's nothing unreasonable about wanting to broker securities on a public ledger.

Well in the normal, boring old securities world broker/dealers don't also get to operate exchanges and offer securities to unqualified investors.

I don't think it's the "public ledger" part of this that causes the regulatory issue frankly.

Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#189
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEC: "The vast majority of digital tokens are securities!" Anyone: "Okay then, is [insert ANY crypto here other than BTC] a security?" SEC: "We decline to answer, or give a hint, but the vast majority of digital tokens are securities!" I really don't care what happens, or how it got to this point, but this state of affairs is absolutely and unequivocally ridiculous and absurd. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhA1dZXe…

Coinbase: “We list dozens of coins, including all the big ones. Maybe they’re all in the tiny minority?” SEC: “No. Stop playing games. You have to register.”

They're not listing coins at random. They claim to have vetting specifically considering this kind of regulation and to reject the vast majority of coins.

Even if we assume Coinbase is in the wrong here, a hypothetical exchange with better vetting could also list dozens of coins and be entirely legit with no securities.

Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coinbase already has a license, but they're not using it. If it's not even clear what a security is, why would you register as a securities broker/exchange?

> If it's not even clear what a security is, why would you register as a securities broker/exchange False condition. The SEC has made it clear that various crypto, e.g. Solana, are securities. If you want to trade those, you must register. Again, if you just want to cash trade Bitcoin and Ether, the SEC has shown zero inclination of messing with you.

I can only find a source from 2 days ago that says the SEC claims Solana is a security.

Before that afaik the only cryptocurrency the sec had explicitly said was a security was XRP which coinbase delisted

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