Sorry for the stupid questions, I really know very little about crypto. With that said, > Gensler firmly maintains that the vast majority of crypto assets are securities, with the exception of Bitcoin Why? From an article on Reuters[1], > Bitcoin is not considered a security because its anonymous and open-source origins mean investor profits are not dependent on the efforts of developers or managers, said Carol Gofor…
In bitcoin software contributors can propose changes to the protocol and software, but they have no absolute power since they can just be rejected by the miners, who are not paid directly from bitcoin raising in price, but from fees from the operation of the network itself. So there is no organization or entity promising returns for owning bitcoin. In Ethereum, a centralized group of people put together a public sale…
“But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
101–110 of 557 posts
Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
#102All other arguments aside: the bottom line is that everyone who invested in crypto did it with the knowledge that Coinbase wasn't a securities broker. The SEC just can't imagine a world where customers are fine without their 'protection'. We don't want your help, we don't need your help. GO away.
> The SEC just can't imagine a world where customers are fine without their 'protection'. We don't want your help, we don't need your help. GO away. This is all well and good until you mess up the economic system for the rest of us. The Great Depression didn't just hit those with stock certificates. And the Great Recession didn't just hit those with mortgage-backed securities.
Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
#103I stopped reading the article when it started comparing cryptocurrency exchanges to the business of selling heroin. No matter your opinion on the issue, that's just alarmist nonsense. I agree that it's reasonable to apply existing securities laws to cryptocurrency, and I agree that "but they let us go public" is a bad argument, but Gensler's SEC has also been intentionally obtuse about how those securities laws shoul…
> Gensler's SEC has also been intentionally obtuse about how those securities laws should apply to cryptocurrency. No. Coinbase’s complaint is that the SEC has been clear, but that they don’t like the clear answer. https://assets.ctfassets.net/c5bd0wqjc7v0/5NRidtW8lvwVEfSHpn... > Rather than initiate new rulemaking, Chair Gensler has repeatedly stated through speeches and testimony that the vast majority of digital t…
Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
#104I stopped reading the article when it started comparing cryptocurrency exchanges to the business of selling heroin. No matter your opinion on the issue, that's just alarmist nonsense. I agree that it's reasonable to apply existing securities laws to cryptocurrency, and I agree that "but they let us go public" is a bad argument, but Gensler's SEC has also been intentionally obtuse about how those securities laws shoul…
Then you stopped reading right before you got to the part of the article that really highlights the central lie of Coinbase: > Coinbase, as with most crypto platforms, has decided it wants to simultaneously operate as an exchange, broker-dealer, and clearing agency. These three functions — bringing together securities orders for buyers and sellers, trading securities on behalf of others, and intermediating trades — a…
The SEC messed up for years but not protecting consumers against fraud. Now they’re trying to prove their reason existence / gov funding.
In one of the (I think MIT lectures 2018) videos, btw? Gensler stated that [probably all crypto except Bitcoin, but including Ether, are moody moody most likely securities].
However, the SEC fails to to provide any guidance and doesn’t have any official position. The reason is that if they make a small mistake or missed sleeping, they might’ve given a free pass.
Edit - MIT open courseware 2018
Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
#105I like reasoned critiques of crypto. Heck, I think many crypto actors are scammers and should be punished. However, a lot of crypto is legit and this piece reeks of bias. Some examples: - comparison with heroin - wtf? To extend that ridiculous analogy, it would be akin to FDA approving heroin based products (similar to how SEC approved Bitcoin ETF in 2021) and then going after heroin. What message is SEC trying to de…
I suspect that Gensler was obfuscating intentionally when asked about cryptocurrency. Modern regulators seem to prefer retrospective punishment over prospective advice and regulation.
Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
#106I stopped reading the article when it started comparing cryptocurrency exchanges to the business of selling heroin. No matter your opinion on the issue, that's just alarmist nonsense. I agree that it's reasonable to apply existing securities laws to cryptocurrency, and I agree that "but they let us go public" is a bad argument, but Gensler's SEC has also been intentionally obtuse about how those securities laws shoul…
Then you stopped reading right before you got to the part of the article that really highlights the central lie of Coinbase: > Coinbase, as with most crypto platforms, has decided it wants to simultaneously operate as an exchange, broker-dealer, and clearing agency. These three functions — bringing together securities orders for buyers and sellers, trading securities on behalf of others, and intermediating trades — a…
This doesn't appear to be what the SEC is suing Coinbase for though, and is actually far more applicable to the question "then why were they allowed to go public?"
It's possible (likely even) there are nuances I don't grok, but sued for selling unregistred securities is not the same as requiring structural separation.
Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then you stopped reading right before you got to the part of the article that really highlights the central lie of Coinbase: > Coinbase, as with most crypto platforms, has decided it wants to simultaneously operate as an exchange, broker-dealer, and clearing agency. These three functions — bringing together securities orders for buyers and sellers, trading securities on behalf of others, and intermediating trades — a…
No that’s not the case. Coinbase wants CLARITY. The SEC does not give any guidance, response, or anything related to this issue. At the same time it’s a laat struggle between the SEC and the CFTC. The SEC messed up for years but not protecting consumers against fraud. Now they’re trying to prove their reason existence / gov funding. In one of the (I think MIT lectures 2018) videos, btw? Gensler stated that [probably…
Coinbase's PR machine wants you to believe they want clarity. Their actual legal documents instead indicate that they're aware that they're probably violating regulations. Take their petition to the SEC for example--it starts by asking not "are cryptocurrencies securities under the Howey test" but "should cryptocurrencies be considered securities". For a document that's supposedly Coinbase's grand we're-going-to-make-the-SEC-clarify-regulation strategy, it's very long on asking for changes to the regulatory regime and very short on asking for clarifications on the application of regulation to cryptocurrencies. Which strongly suggests that they in fact know how the regulations apply to cryptocurrencies, they just don't like it.
Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then you stopped reading right before you got to the part of the article that really highlights the central lie of Coinbase: > Coinbase, as with most crypto platforms, has decided it wants to simultaneously operate as an exchange, broker-dealer, and clearing agency. These three functions — bringing together securities orders for buyers and sellers, trading securities on behalf of others, and intermediating trades — a…
No that’s not the case. Coinbase wants CLARITY. The SEC does not give any guidance, response, or anything related to this issue. At the same time it’s a laat struggle between the SEC and the CFTC. The SEC messed up for years but not protecting consumers against fraud. Now they’re trying to prove their reason existence / gov funding. In one of the (I think MIT lectures 2018) videos, btw? Gensler stated that [probably…
It also helps when one of your former execs came from Goldman Sachs, and were backed by VC including YC and the Stanford mafia--Balaji's buy out of 21 and being placed as CTO confirmed all my suspicions I had during thier mining days.
Honestly, and I say this with all the malice in the World if you are reading this, Armstrong: I hope we can finally get rid of you and that cancer that is Coinbase and all the BS it has wrought us once and for all, even if it crashes the market for a while.
The fact that they hold that much BTC is a huge issue, but what is at the core of this is more to do with the real problem with this is centralized systems with directly conflicting ideals to the overall community operates with so much weight in an otherwise decentralized network: they were unfit to be in this ecosystem and they exploited a very clear window with their immense access to resources and VC money and while they made the most of it, it seems the tide has finally turned on them.
I can forgive Mark and MTGOX, that was a case of what happens when gross incompetence and unforeseen immense growth intersect; he paid a price for that, spent time in a Japanese prison and had his entire life ruined in the process.
Brian Armstrong has spent a decade being the bane of the Bitcoin ecosystem and sold scams to unwitting customers with no remorse, sided with the FUDsters during USAF etc... this is the typical corpo with no scruples trying to act innocent when he is finally subjected to the same regulatory body who leave the rest of us in the dark: those who I will remind you he sided with all along because it benefited him.
I honestly wish he gets the Charlie Schrem treatment and gets humbled in the same way.
Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there a statute of limitations or a similar concept? For example, hypothetically would it be possible 30 years after the Ethereum ICO for the SEC to declare that ETH has been a security the entire time? As of now, it's been almost 10 years since the Ethereum ICO.
5 years unless there is evidence of active fraud.
Re: “But the SEC let us go public” and other flawed arguments in Coinbase's defense
#110https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2023/comp-pr2023-1...