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Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

teslamotors.com

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Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#181

Post by droithomme »

veyron wrote: post #176
nknight wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am sure you have heard of prorated battery warranties and are familiar with them, aren't you? I'm not. I've never heard of any such thing. Perhaps it is you being misleading?

It's actually more common with tires, but there are battery manufacturers like Interstate that give prorated battery warranties (of course there are all kinds of stipulations on the warranty protecting them from negligence claims)

Hm, interesting. Anyone who has owned a car has had to replace the battery at some point and they all have warranties and all car battery warranties are pro-rated. (Maybe there is some exception, I've never seen it.) Same for lawn and garden batteries for driving mowers. It's possible some of the overseas readers here have never owned a car though and just haven't ever needed to buy a car battery and weren't familiar with this.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#182

Post by phil »

This sounds a lot like breaking a timing belt on an engine with an interference design. (When that happens the cylinders plow into the valves and there's a lot of carnage).

On my car that's a $6-7000 fix if it happens. I bet if there were only 2,500 of those engines in the world it would be a $40k fix, but economies of scale have made it cheaper.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#183

Post by droithomme »

seanos wrote: post #115
cynicalkane wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a few dozen people pointed out, these batteries can become bricked even with a physical disconnect. They're not bricking because of being drained, they're bricking because they're drained and then left for months. Do this to any other Li-Ion device and the same thing will happen. More generally, you jumped to conclusions based on personal anecdotal evidence, ignored the entire preceding discussion, then pretended…

Except that for the Tesla it's days after reaching zero charge, not months. From the manual "Important! Caution: If the battery’s charge level falls to 0%, it must be plugged in immediately. Failure to do so can permanently damage the battery and this damage is not covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty."

It looks like one of the specific cases on this, Max Drucker's Tesla, was it bricked two months after bringing it to 25% displayed charge level. So the car wasn't even run all the way down. Presumably the time to failure is much shorter if you bring it to the 0% displayed charge level at which point it shuts down. Your guess of days is probably correct.

In the first link here you can even see the emails between Tesla representatives and Drucker, so Tesla is 100% aware that this car was bricked and the cost to fix it was over $40,000, which was the "friends and family" price for "loyal supporters", not the standard repair rate, which is presumed to be much higher.

Because they have emails on the subject, which note that even Musk is aware of the situation, their PR efforts to suggest the cars can't be bricked and the allegations in their statement are not only false, but are intentional lies and misrepresentations by Tesla, showing bad faith. It is absolutely a cover up, coupled with the start of a media smear campaign that we see getting in gear in the technical press.

http://jalopnik.com/5887499/who-is-trying-to-smear-the-tesla...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/the-tesla-roadster-...

edit: I see that people are so threatened by reality they are paralyzed into downvoting because they have no coherent response and so censorship is the only action that makes sense to their tiny reptilian brains. Above are actual emails between Tesla and an owner that prove Tesla is aware of the problem, bricking is possible, the repairs are a minimum of $40,000, the blogger is telling the truth, and Tesla is blatantly lying and misrepresenting the situation in their response. Downvote all you want, it only shows what a failure you are and won't change reality.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#184

Post by gwern »

> The earliest Roadsters will take over two months to discharge if parked at a 50 percent charge without being plugged in.

What exactly are the conditions for this statement to be true? My laptop battery has lost some of its capacity over the past 2 years - how much capacity do Roadsters lose over time? If I had bought one of the first 100 or whatever, what would that discharge figure be now?

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#185

Post by ugh »

nknight wrote: post #173
ugh wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s new and unusual. If there are really only these vague warnings in the manual (manuals tend to have all kinds of crazy warning that you usually don’t have to take all that seriously) then this is absolutely Tesla’s fault and they have to own up to it.

First of all, the warnings in the manual are anything but vague. Second, again you're proving the point. If EVs were the norm and suddenly internal combustion engines burst onto the scene, people would be breaking those because they're not used to what you can or can't do.

Electric cars have an uphill battle in front of them. As a company you cannot have fussy debates about whose fault something was.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#186

Post by scott_s »

ugh wrote: post #185
nknight wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, the warnings in the manual are anything but vague. Second, again you're proving the point. If EVs were the norm and suddenly internal combustion engines burst onto the scene, people would be breaking those because they're not used to what you can or can't do.

Electric cars have an uphill battle in front of them. As a company you cannot have fussy debates about whose fault something was.

That may be true, but it's orthogonal to the point I was responding to, which was "You shouldn't need to read a manual to drive a car." The only reason that statement holds with gas-based cars is that the things one needs to do to take care of them is common knowledge. New technologies have new quirks, and those who adopt them will have to read the manual. Eventually, when the technology becomes common, how to take care of them will become common knowledge, and then no one will read the manuals.

You're making a point about what is best for Tesla from a marketing perspective.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#188

Post by jodrellblank »

droithomme wrote: post #157
jm4 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. You buy a car that only needs maintenance once a year, but you have to plug it in at least once every few weeks. They are willing to go well above and beyond what most would expect in order to remind you of that. I think that's a pretty good deal. Responsible owners do not let the battery charge reach zero. The consequences are serious enough that owners with unusual usage patterns that make this difficul…

I screwed up once and my car ran out of gas. Had to walk 3 miles. Didn't cost $40,000 to fix.

Discharging a Li-ion battery completely chemically changes it so it can't be recharged and can set on fire if you try. And they lose charge even if you shutdown all circuitry and just let them sit.

To fix this problem you need your car in a garage, a replacement pack of 6000 high-tech niche market batteries shipped from wherever they are made, mechanics skilled on a niche sportscar, and responsible disposal of of the old battery pack.

To 'fix' your problem, you need to pour easily available cheap liquid into an empty container. There's no comparison and it's not a Tesla design flaw, it's a battery technology limitation which applies to other li-ion cars, laptops, etc. too, if left long enough to drain past the controller reporting 'empty'.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#189

Post by learc83 »

droithomme wrote: post #181
veyron wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually more common with tires, but there are battery manufacturers like Interstate that give prorated battery warranties (of course there are all kinds of stipulations on the warranty protecting them from negligence claims)

Hm, interesting. Anyone who has owned a car has had to replace the battery at some point and they all have warranties and all car battery warranties are pro-rated. (Maybe there is some exception, I've never seen it.) Same for lawn and garden batteries for driving mowers. It's possible some of the overseas readers here have never owned a car though and just haven't ever needed to buy a car battery and weren't familiar…

I've always just bought new batteries. They weren't expensive enough to bother with any redeeming a prorated warranty. If a battery goes out after several years, how much I going to get anyway? $10?

There are definitely car owners who have never dealt with battery warranties.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#190

Post by learc83 »

gph wrote: post #136
marvin wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't see the problem. Tesla clearly states in the manual that completely depleting the battery and then leaving it without charging it will cause damage to the car. This would be completely analogous to running a brand-new early car without oil, destroying the engine. It's a serious neglect of your maintenance duties. I mean, yes. You can "destroy" your car by not charging it. You can also destroy it by acc…

The problem is that this isn't common knowledge yet and it needs to be. Is this Tesla's fault? Not entirely. But let's be honest, a small warning in the middle of the owners manual is not good enough. I'm sure they feel it would be stupid to advertise something that to the general public looks like a defect with the technology. But I think it would have been better for them in the long-run if they were more informati…

>The problem is that this isn't common knowledge yet and it needs to be.

They definitely inform the owner that completely depleting the battery will damage it. Why does everyone seem to think they don't?

The newer Roadsters even come with a system to notify Tesla if the batteries are too low. What else could they do to educate the owners? Make them take a weekend class?

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