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Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

viemu.com

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Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#181

Post by kstenerud »

vacri wrote: post #172
kstenerud wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, but ending on a disrespectful tone is generally a bad idea.

I don't see the above quote as particularly disrespectful in context. It's a bit like a friend who has just spent half an hour talking you into going for that new wonderful job, and says 'or you could stay in your crummy current job'.

Basically he's saying: "I think this way of doing things is awesome. Here's how to do it my way. Your way of doing it is crappy compared to mine, but hey it's your choice to continue being a substandard performer."

Even your example is riddled with condescension, with your judgment from on high that your friend's job is "crummy". It's not only disrespectful; it betrays an unsavory vanity on your part.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#182

Post by kahawe »

ckg wrote: post #158
kahawe wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing vi to an IDE is like comparing a screwdriver to a fully automated car assembly line... it is completely beside the point and they each have their purpose and downsides.

Screwdriver - quick, cheap, easy to use, intuitive. Can be learned once and carried around with you. Car assembly line - lots of initial capital, specific to one kind of car, lots of time to learn. Seems like a valid comparison.

The point is: these comparisons always try to make vi seem like the always better choice INSTEAD of an IDE and this is were I completely disagree. And you make it look just like that with adjusting the comparison in favor of vi, the screwdriver. This is just wrong. Let's see, you could also say:

Screwdriver: specific to only one type of screw, limited to only a couple of similar sizes and all you can do is drive screws in and out or maybe stab someone.

Assembly line: way more complex and needs some setup time but you can do WAY more things with it, way faster, way more efficient once setup, especially on a larger scale. It can drive screws in and out, solder, cut, fold, package etcetcetcetc. Pretty much anything you set it up to.

So, vi is a horrible replacement or alternative to use in the typical huge Java (or what have you) e.g. web app projects where things like auto completion and easily getting from one class to another, built-in compiling, debugging, refactoring, source control etcetcetcetc really start to make your life easier. vi on its own cannot offer you that, not even remotely... then you need a shell and other programs to do all that. And there are no alternatives to most of the tasks an IDE can offer you help with.

vi is definitely nice for editing files especially on a slow line and as a general purpose editor - but it is no replacement for an IDE and the comparison that it is "better than an IDE" might only apply for exactly one task: editing files. IDEs offer you tons of other things. So it is just wrong to compare to two or present one as a replacement for the other.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#183

Post by Aga »

A couple of years ago I was recommended to read this article as I was doubting if vim was anything for me. It convinced me to give it a try and after two weeks of learning it felt I could never go back. Since then I have vimified everything I can.

Later I have recommended this article to others of whom some have had similar experiences...

The author does a fine job describing the vim-philosophy instead of just a bag of tricks.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#184

Post by losvedir »

mattmanser wrote: post #175
weaksauce wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example 1: use q to make a macro and then invoke it with @ and it would be even less typing. There are many, many ways to edit in vim. Example 2: If you press dW it deletes the whole word. which would be the entire entry.key().equals(qk.key) string. dw would delete up to the period. d2f) would delete up to and including the second right paren from where you are. I personally use delete whole word a lot. Example 3: th…

You kinda missed the point of my comment, it's just demonstrating that there's nothing amazing about any of his examples. I'm not denying some things are faster in vim, but other things are slower. What I take umbrage with is when someone posts a load of examples like this where they can all be done in your favourite IDE but the author's just too lazy to find out if they could be and so declares the magic of Vi or Em…

To be fair to the author, the post is to convince people to use viemu, his product which gives vi controls to Visual Studio. So, I think he probably agrees with you with regard to IDEs.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#186

Post by staunch »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #153
staunch wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easier for a beginner ≠ better for an expert.

I'm actually quite satisfied in being a perpetual "vi beginner". With regard to Linux however, I started using it (professionally too) before most people (including IT professionals) heard of it at all. I enjoy puzzling my coworkers by declaring that I am "vi-ignorant and proud of it". :) Anyway, I guess I just dislike vi because it's different from everything else. I like things that are uniform. That's what really…

Linux is to Unix as Vim is to Vi. Based on 70s tech, developed in modern times.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#187

Post by tomkarlo »

staunch wrote: post #136
Domenic_S wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny that you got downvoted. The entire industry has spent the last... forever years making things easier to use/gui-fied, and you get dinged for wanting to use those improvements.

Easier for a beginner ≠ better for an expert.

The goal of a new text editor shouldn't be to make things better for people who are already experts on an existing platform. It should be to make it better for beginners on the new editor (because initially, everyone is) and better for them when they become experts.

Saying "I'm an expert at vi, and other editors don't work as well for me" is a pretty meaningless statement. Of course they don't. It's like saying "I speak English, and I find speaking Spanish really hard, so English must be the best."

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#188

Post by LogicHoleFlaw »

eropple wrote: post #87
tomjen3 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very nice to have a tab for each of your files. Until you have twenty files open and you can't find the right one (will happen sooner than you think, at least on largeish projects).

I currently have 55 tabs open in IntelliJ (I counted). I have no trouble finding any of them. Side tabs and alphabetical sort are great.

...I have a persistent Vim session with ~600 files open. It's been in active use for over a year. It works great.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#189

Post by nerdfiles »

Vi/m is a funny hat that I put on and that gives me powers. Let's call it meta-learning! I'm writing code; now, I'm writing code with a funny hat on. _This_ computer's funny hat!

The great thing about Vi/m is that it compels you to read by withholding input entry. Key-bindings are secondary, but no less significant in that you can use two different object languages for dealing with text. Being forced to read through navigation of text with a robust language aids in presenting analogies to the coder. Who is entering the text? Does VISUAL feel like a finger pointing at the screen?

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#190

Post by weaksauce »

mattmanser wrote: post #175
weaksauce wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example 1: use q to make a macro and then invoke it with @ and it would be even less typing. There are many, many ways to edit in vim. Example 2: If you press dW it deletes the whole word. which would be the entire entry.key().equals(qk.key) string. dw would delete up to the period. d2f) would delete up to and including the second right paren from where you are. I personally use delete whole word a lot. Example 3: th…

You kinda missed the point of my comment, it's just demonstrating that there's nothing amazing about any of his examples. I'm not denying some things are faster in vim, but other things are slower. What I take umbrage with is when someone posts a load of examples like this where they can all be done in your favourite IDE but the author's just too lazy to find out if they could be and so declares the magic of Vi or Em…

I agree that there was nothing amazing with the examples that he gave. you can do anything in notepad that you can do in vim as it is all text. I actually like using my editor because it conforms to how I want to use it. it is very fast at slinging text around. Vim is a text programming language and you are learning the syntax of how to program in it. I like the satisfaction of being able to cut and paste text without thinking about it much. navigation is smoother as it's less disjointed to navigate by block than it is to navigate by pageup, pagedown; everything feels smoother.

It takes a bit to get used to the language of vim but once you do you will see. I also don't get why you need it to be mutually exclusive. If I was doing a lot of windows coding I would probably use visual studio with the vi plugin.

Stuff like vim surround is a great plugin if you regularly need to write html or strings that you forgot to surround with quotes.

example of that: Usage: Old text | Command | Result |IShot The Sheriff | yssA | I Shot The Sheriff

One of the best things about vim is the capability to map keys to other keys and have them either recursively act or non recursively act. EVERYTHING* can be customized. There is also something awesome about having most of the commands be one key as it really speeds things up. for example just moving one word right would be two uncomfortable keystrokes in vs(ctrl-right arrow) vs just one(w).

Not full on guru videos but some learning videos:

http://www.derekwyatt.org/vim/vim-tutorial-videos/

The first answer here is excellent and only covers what vi can do and not all the bonus vim stuff:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1218390/what-is-your-most...

Good outline of the vim way:

http://stevelosh.com/blog/2010/09/coming-home-to-vim/

shows a lot of small techniques:

http://vimcasts.org/episodes/archive

To be fair I think the author is not dismissing all other cars as not having windshield wipers; I think the author is more saying that my car has windshield wipers that you can turn easily and other cars have it so you have to turn them on via the glove compartment. ;)

Everything feels fast when I am using vim well and I just can't say that about any of the IDE's(I have used visual studio professionally for years and was constantly looking for performance shortcuts).

Give vim a shot and try to really give it a go.

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