Earlier quoted context omitted.
My response to this approach has always been the middle finger. If someone can't afford me even the minimal level of respect, I'll leave. My worth is not dependent upon what other people think.
So a 4000 word article that includes character-by-character examples for newbies doesn't count as 'the minimal level of respect'?
Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
161–170 of 228 posts
Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
> All of this, except the 20 minutes part. I'd hate > to have to spend that much time with one of these > "enlightened" editors. Did you have this same resistance to learning when you learned the languages you are presumably programming in? "I'd hate to have to spend 20 minutes with Ruby, just let me describe my program in 'real' language please."
> Did you have this same resistance to learned when you learning the languages you are presumably programming in? Speaking for myself, no. My reasons for disliking "enlightened" editors are similar to my reasons for disliking alternative keyboard layouts. If I can only be fluent in a highly specialized environment, in a sense, my skills become less portable. I like being able to walk up to someone's computer and just…
vi exists on pretty much every *nix machine out there. The only way this makes sense is if you mean "Windows computer", and even then extremely few of them have a text editor more complex than Wordpad, which has so few commands that yes, anyone can use them if they know ctrl+c/v and a couple of other things.
Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Did you have this same resistance to learned when you learning the languages you are presumably programming in? Speaking for myself, no. My reasons for disliking "enlightened" editors are similar to my reasons for disliking alternative keyboard layouts. If I can only be fluent in a highly specialized environment, in a sense, my skills become less portable. I like being able to walk up to someone's computer and just…
I like being able to walk up to someone's computer and just use it or help them with their issue. vi exists on pretty much every *nix machine out there. The only way this makes sense is if you mean "Windows computer", and even then extremely few of them have a text editor more complex than Wordpad, which has so few commands that yes, anyone can use them if they know ctrl+c/v and a couple of other things.
Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If I can only be fluent in a highly specialized > environment, in a sense, my skills become less > portable. I like being able to walk up to someone's > computer and just use it or help them with their issue This is a non-issue. There are no versions of Windows, Linux or OSX that allow all text boxes to use Vi keybindings. The idea that if you started using Vi or Emacs bindings in an 'enlightened' editor, that you…
Also typing in dvorak layout doesn't destroy your ability to type qwerty.
Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
#165I've never really felt comfortable in vi. I first started using it in 1989 at home, used it throughout college, and then used it on-and-off during my career, but it's never really felt powerful compared to a GUI editor. I want a scrollbar. I want a list of files in my project that I can just click on to open. I want tabs I can click. I want multiple windows that I can alt-tab to. And since I spend most of my time thi…
Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
#166What I want to know: how good is the best autocompletion available? Does it stack up to Visual Studio's Intellisense? (For statically typed languages, that is; Intellisense doesn't work very well for eg Javascript).
To be completely honest if you were impressed you shouldn't have been. Learn your IDE! Apart from the douchey tone of the article, the thing he misses is that most editors can do this stuff, you've just got to make a bit of an effort to find out how. Emacs/Vim force you to learn this stuff as they suck without it. That's one of the big difference between Vim/Emacs and others, people don't realise they can do so much…
Example 2: If you press dW it deletes the whole word. which would be the entire entry.key().equals(qk.key) string. dw would delete up to the period. d2f) would delete up to and including the second right paren from where you are. I personally use delete whole word a lot.
Example 3: the di> would delete everything inside the brackets even if they spanned multiple lines. you also can be anywhere inside the bracket and this will still work. This also works with other types of tags. di) would do the same for the current level of nested parens.
Example 4: really only offering one way to do granular navigation vs. many different ways that might work for a particular situation. learning them is not that hard when you take into consideration the mnemonics involved. you need to learn some verbs to be effective: d is delete, v is visual, c is change, w is word, f is find, t is find unTil, p is put, y is yank, a is after, b is back, etc....
Example 5: There are plugins that can do this automatically in vim too. The larger, more interesting thing is the ability to do entire operations on text blocks and I think that is more important than the particular case of automatic indenting.
Example 6: you can also get a plugin that does the highlighting automatically.
The fingers on the home row is pretty awesome. there is a cognitive load to navigation to precisely put your hands on the arrow keys correctly. To get back to normal mode you can either slap the escape key(not as good) or remap escape to jj(or some other not commonly used key sequence) while in insert mode.
The macro system in vim is excellent. everything is text so you can look at the macro commands and edit them if you made a mistake. There are a lot of registers(basically named clipboards that you can use to copy and paste text the " is the default clipboard when you don't actually specify a yank target.)
Your point was that the ide is great and can do all that vim can do, but you only showed that aside from some special case things with snippets and auto indenting. After you have gone past the special case stuff that your ide can do you have to resort to hunting with the arrow keys.
You can be productive in macvim quite quickly as it affords all the fun copy and paste stuff like you are expecting to have at the os level but still have all the vim goodness underneath. at the end of the day go for whatever you feel most productive in but there really is a reason that after you get competent with vim/emacs you are extremely productive.
Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
#167Whenever I am using a program other than vim I feel clumsy. Plugins for Eclipse, Chrome and so on will only bring you so far. The other way around, namely turning vim into a multipurpose IDE does not satisfy my needs. One needs to admit that some features (refactoring support in Eclipse for example) cannot be matched by the available vim plugins. I know there are other solutions, like eclim, but I am looking for some…
It gives you modal editing, all the basic vi movements and commands, and still lets you use all the power of Eclipse's standard editor features.
Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
#168> Do whatever you want. Don't learn it if you feel it's too much effort just for nothing. Learn emacs instead. Or stay in your IDE using a lousy editor. Whatever. Why do all articles about how wonderful vi is end with condescension? Anyway: vi -> fast editing. IDE -> fast maintenance. I know which one I'd choose. The text editing features of an IDE is not why people choose to use IDEs (note: of course this helps best…
Oh! I read over the line that says that the author is actually developing a Visual Studio plugin to close exactly this gap. That's cool. Also puts what I took for condescension in a different light. Anyone used it? I might consider learning vi bindings decently if I can keep getting all the IDE goodness.
A few finer points are missing, but overall I can wholeheartedly recommend it. (missing: put last deletes in number registers)
There is also the free VsVim, though.
Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
#169I use vim for about a year or more, and I like it, however I'm still having trouble with copying and pasting tiny fragments of text. Maybe someone can help me out with this? 1) If I yank a line with yy, pressing P or p will insert the text into a new line. 2) If I go to visual mode and select a region, yank it with y, then press p/P, it gets it inserted into the current line. That is, vim preserves new lines. What I…
For #1, the yy command will yank the entire line (including the newline). Try using y$, which will yank from the cursor to the end of the line (not including the newline).
map Y y$Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
To be completely honest if you were impressed you shouldn't have been. Learn your IDE! Apart from the douchey tone of the article, the thing he misses is that most editors can do this stuff, you've just got to make a bit of an effort to find out how. Emacs/Vim force you to learn this stuff as they suck without it. That's one of the big difference between Vim/Emacs and others, people don't realise they can do so much…
How does VS2010 compare to vi when making a change to a config file on a remote machine? He keeps banging on about fingers staying on the home row, but I don't really notice moving to the arrow keys, perhaps it's cognitively similar to switching to/from insert mode. It's slower. I still move to the arrow keys in vi for some reason, and it noticeable slows me down when I do so. The physical movement of your arm there…
I am only pointing out that all the author's examples are achievable in most IDEs, you just have to learn. There's nothing special or magical there.
And IDEs have other advantages. The phenomenal amount of code completion VS does for me means I generally only ever have to write a variable, function or method name once and from then on the first 2 characters will pretty much finish it off for me as VS is totally context aware. Not in a file, but in an entire project, in an entire solution made up of many projects. For all the imported libraries. Contrast that to basic auto-completion which can only take you so far.
Snippets make anything boilerplate fairly trivial. Using statements are included at a ctrl-. enter as VS recognises the desired namespace. You can write function calls without them existing, ctrl-. enter, and VS will add them for you in the right file which you can then jump to after you've finished the line by pressing F12 and immediately start on the new function or object method, which already has the correct parameters.
Maybe Vim/Emacs can do all this too, but it's just demonstrating that you can pump out 100s of lines of code in very little time if you really want to. But it's rare for anyone to keep that up because that's not real coding. Maybe if you'd written the program before. Real coding is thinking or physically writing in a notepad for a while, then writing at most probably 20 lines and then pondering and then writing a few more lines, pondering some more, then maybe another big burst, then some more tweaking.
At least that's how it is for me.
For example the answer for VS to this video question of 'can your editor do this' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCiVCiku3cM is yes. It can. But how often do you actually do crap like that?
But there's no good videos I can find demonstrating the famed Vim or Emacs power that gushing articles like this profess which I've been able to find. And almost every single time with the examples these articles provide I find myself thinking 'but I can do that in the same number of key presses in VS'. Often even less key presses.
This time I thought I'd demonstrate exactly how.