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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#181

Post by sokoloff »

Schnitz wrote: post #162
akmarinov wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2035 US is 2022 Europe, if your garage has power - you have 220v

How many people in the US do really not have 220V in the garage? I bet a lot of homes have either a sub-panel (and thus could add 220V very easily) or a laundry (dryer socket, 220V).

I don’t right now in my detached garage (though I buried conduits during recent landscaping to permit me to pull them later). Right now, I have a 120V, 15A circuit out there that powers everything.

Regardless, my cheap LEAF turned 8 just a bit ago and I’ve driven it in New England year-round for 8 years without issue, even with only level 1 charging at home. It’s fine for an around-town daily driver (which is what the LEAF is well-matched to).

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#182

Post by murderfs »

kzrdude wrote: post #179
cwalv wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

I'm curious, is 220V (or 230V) more than twice as fast/twice as good as 110V? The discussion here makes it sound like it. All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally. I guess heat losses and other problems are significant, if it's a problem at 110V?

At the same amperage, it's exactly twice as good, but if you're going to get a 220V outlet installed, you're also going to get a higher amperage circuit installed at the same time, so you can charge at 220V/50A instead of 110V/12A, which is 8x faster.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#183

Post by wilg »

thinking4real wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regular EV user here - plugging it in is something you do every time you park, the way you lock your doors. It takes five seconds. Press the «open charge port» button on the charging cable and stick it in the charging socket. Done.

I’m cracking up that you’re making this sound so simple and matter of fact, but reading this description of how one is “supposed” to charge their EV makes me realize i’m many years from wanting one. Honestly, it’s kind of a joke how badly people want to defend the tech despite its current shortcomings.

You gotta plug it in to charge, man. I don't know what you want. Just leave it plugged in whenever you can and that's it.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#184

Post by sokoloff »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #163
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy and drops the effective work done. You're oblivious to it because a motor vehicle has so much available power on tap. It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds. Conversely. Sailboats get more efficient in cold temperatures because more energy is imparted on the sail.

> Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy and drops the effective work done. That makes absolutely no difference at all.

> That makes absolutely no difference at all.

That would be very surprising if it were true, given the very large effect density altitude has on airplane performance (engine and wing).

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#185

Post by csours »

labcomputer wrote: post #50

It’s interesting that nobody in this thread has yet mentioned the numerous range tests showing that Teslas achieve less than EPA range in many “real world” (warm weather) tests. Part of the EPA methodology is to penalize EV range using either a fixed constant or measurements of performance at reduced temperatures. Because Tesla cars perform better in the cold, they use the measurement method when calculating EPA rang…

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss

See the chart here. (source from article)

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#187

Post by wilg »

d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

The easiest solution here was just to plug it in when you arrived, not the next day.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#188

Post by marvin »

thinking4real wrote: post #89
marvin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regular EV user here - plugging it in is something you do every time you park, the way you lock your doors. It takes five seconds. Press the «open charge port» button on the charging cable and stick it in the charging socket. Done.

I’m cracking up that you’re making this sound so simple and matter of fact, but reading this description of how one is “supposed” to charge their EV makes me realize i’m many years from wanting one. Honestly, it’s kind of a joke how badly people want to defend the tech despite its current shortcomings.

Filling gas and changing oil is also pretty inconvenient, it’s just habit that makes you discount it. A good EV is more convenient for everyday use. Cheaper too.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#189

Post by pard68 »

rlkf wrote: post #178
pard68 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that something that actually happens to diesel engines? I have multiple diesels and while they are difficult to _start_ in the cold they are fine once started for me. But yes, cold enough and combustion engines are hard to get going. My Subaru hates cold days, it'll go a few seconds on a below freezing day before ignition. My diesel tractors actually have electric plugs to keep the manifold hot.

Mostly it's the start battery that have problems in the cold. The diesel sold in Norway have anti-gelling substances added; cars run fine in -20 degC/-4 degF.

I live in the southern USA. So it makes sense that I have never heard of this. We had a -6°F night the other night but usually it'll freeze at night and be back above freezing by noon.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#190

Post by justsomehnguy »

Swenrekcah wrote: post #131
alphabettsy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather. People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles. > I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics than me should, but there is all kind of chaos that can happen if your engine freezes and you try to drive it immediately. Engines do not freeze i…

> People choose to do this. This isn’t required and it’s recommended against in modern vehicles. I’m curious about that recommendation, do you know why that is?

You need N joules to heat up the 300kg of the engine. It doesn't matter if you sit there for 15 minutes freezing your ass with an engine running at 1500rpm (and all other car parts still freezing) or 5 minutes actually driving at 3000rpm - you still spent N joules on heating, difference is the time. And the car heater runs on the engine heat, not on the electricity, so the sooner you would warm the engine the sooner your car interior start to warm and stops seeping the heat from engine.

It's actually more importantly to have enough viscosity in ATF, but again, the sooner you would go the sooner it would warm.

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