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How to communicate effectively as a developer

karlsutt.com

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Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#181

Post by mason55 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #177
kitanata wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Staff Engineer leading a large engineering organization. I am also “on the spectrum” and openly autistic. My co-workers know that I am autistic. I have found that communicating to business folks and leaders is a skill like anything else and can be taught. Your assumption that being autistic somehow completely disqualifies one to speak competently to others is ableist and harmful. While it is true that people w…

> Your assumption that being autistic somehow completely disqualifies one to speak competently to others... As anyone can see, I did not write that.

It was such a perfect illustrative response because your post said nothing of the sort and in fact explained how anyone can pick up the skill

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#182

Post by beckingz »

kitanata wrote: post #157
BurningFrog wrote: post #51

Here is my competing take: The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. As in, you talk/write to people as if they know all about your code, except the detail being discussed. In reality, they usually have much less detailed understanding, and you're making no sense to them. I'm pretty sure this is related to people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mi…

I am a Staff Engineer leading a large engineering organization. I am also “on the spectrum” and openly autistic. My co-workers know that I am autistic. I have found that communicating to business folks and leaders is a skill like anything else and can be taught. Your assumption that being autistic somehow completely disqualifies one to speak competently to others is ableist and harmful. While it is true that people w…

The parent comment said that non-autistic people often assumed that people knew what they knew and failed to communicate.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#183

Post by quickthrower2 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #51

Here is my competing take: The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. As in, you talk/write to people as if they know all about your code, except the detail being discussed. In reality, they usually have much less detailed understanding, and you're making no sense to them. I'm pretty sure this is related to people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mi…

How is that a competing take?

From the article:

> In both cases, the example on the left is what I call “low-resolution writing”. There is very little context, too much reliance on pronouns and unclear references. The writing is not emphatic —the reader has to spend extra energy to work out what is being said

Your comment here is the main point of the article, which is a point made multiple times within it.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#184

Post by yarg »

BurningFrog wrote: post #51

Here is my competing take: The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. As in, you talk/write to people as if they know all about your code, except the detail being discussed. In reality, they usually have much less detailed understanding, and you're making no sense to them. I'm pretty sure this is related to people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mi…

I don't assume that someone knows the context, I assume that they could understand the context if they looked at it - that it can be explained to them to a useful extent.

Because if you don't understand that, then your understanding of the problem space is not going to be sufficient for any useful purpose.

And if you're a manager, then the company fucked up by putting something technically complex within your purview.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#185

Post by ghostpepper »

jonahx wrote: post #148
_greim_ wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. Ah yes, the "shouting up from the rabbit-hole problem". > people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mind" capabilities. I somewhat take issue with this, as people on the spectrum are more likely to over-communicate, all other things being equal. Techies are rather caught in a web of social status pressures.…

Bottom right should be "points lost" imo. For me, the most points lost, as there is nothing more annoying than someone assuming context I don't have. It seems that this chart assumes: 1. Everyone is a baby that gets their feelings hurt when you imply they might not know something they do in fact know (top right). 2. Everyone loves being alpha nerd and making people feel dumb for not knowing things they know (bottom r…

> there is nothing more annoying than someone assuming context I don't have

I worked with a senior developer when I was a junior who would answer any question by starting from first principles.

I understand sometimes a question can betray a misunderstanding of foundational principles but this was decidedly not the case, at least in most of the incidents.

I eventually learned to just not ask him questions unless I was absolutely desperate, because it would take him 5-10 minutes to work up to the critical piece of information I was actually missing. I think he just liked to hear himself orate.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#186

Post by quietbritishjim »

beckingz wrote: post #182
kitanata wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Staff Engineer leading a large engineering organization. I am also “on the spectrum” and openly autistic. My co-workers know that I am autistic. I have found that communicating to business folks and leaders is a skill like anything else and can be taught. Your assumption that being autistic somehow completely disqualifies one to speak competently to others is ableist and harmful. While it is true that people w…

The parent comment said that non-autistic people often assumed that people knew what they knew and failed to communicate.

I think maybe you misread "People without that will just assume people know what they know..." to mean "without autism" but it actually meant "without a good theory of mind [as is often the case for autistic people]"

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#187

Post by willjp »

ghostpepper wrote: post #185
jonahx wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bottom right should be "points lost" imo. For me, the most points lost, as there is nothing more annoying than someone assuming context I don't have. It seems that this chart assumes: 1. Everyone is a baby that gets their feelings hurt when you imply they might not know something they do in fact know (top right). 2. Everyone loves being alpha nerd and making people feel dumb for not knowing things they know (bottom r…

> there is nothing more annoying than someone assuming context I don't have I worked with a senior developer when I was a junior who would answer any question by starting from first principles. I understand sometimes a question can betray a misunderstanding of foundational principles but this was decidedly not the case, at least in most of the incidents. I eventually learned to just not ask him questions unless I was…

It’s hard to solve. I’ve read blogs where people find it condescending but the opposite can be harrowing, especially if it is clear the other party is annoyed.

Empathy tends to drive my own novelistic explanations, not conceit. It might help to mention something if you haven’t yet. Everyone is different though.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#188

Post by ambrose2 »

aeze wrote: post #109
bitwize wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a tendency to info-dump to establish shared context, and people find that insulting as well. So it can turn into a dilemma of: Info-dump: "I know that already! What do you think I am, an idiot?" Assume context: "In English, please! I didn't get my MBA to be made to look like an idiot." Excuse me for failing to read your mind and know exactly what you know and what you don't before I begin. Those of us on the s…

I think there are ways to learn how much context the other party needs - like asking them in the beginning of the conversation.

Yea, that’s simple in a one on one. But how do you simultaneously provide the right level of jargon and context in a standup with a mixed crowd of MBAs and developers? Either the PM is frustrated that they have to listen to you go in the weeds, or they don’t understand why is this is important, or the fellow dev isn’t getting enough technical detail to understand precisely the crux if you’ve oversimplified.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#189

Post by willjp »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #125
taude wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're "assumed context" problem actually has another term called "Curse of Knowledge" [1] (which I believe it's much more known as). There's a ton of strategies that have been written about it. Just adding this term here for people who want to search for strategies on how to work around this. It comes into play in all forms of communication, written, verbal, Slack, etc... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cu…

I can speak to what it's like with autism brain. In conversations people often say things that I have unusual associations about. My mind will start spiraling about the unusual association and I will begin an internal narrative about the new, unrelated topic without verbalizing any of it. I will continue with the original conversation with the convo partner. Then, out of the blue, I will verbalize something about the…

This sounds eerily familiar. Thank you for posting, I have some reading to do.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#190

Post by ar_lan »

BurningFrog wrote: post #51

Here is my competing take: The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. As in, you talk/write to people as if they know all about your code, except the detail being discussed. In reality, they usually have much less detailed understanding, and you're making no sense to them. I'm pretty sure this is related to people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mi…

> It also makes it easy to think of those who don't know what is obvious to you as idiots.

Honestly, if someone does this to me, I often think they are the incompetent one/idiot. Teaching and ensuring understandability is a core skill (which can absolutely be learned) necessary for a functioning team.

At least the two folks I know with autism on my team have worked incredibly hard at ensuring they practice this skill, and they are some of the best developers I know, partially for that.

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