Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to communicate effectively as a developer

karlsutt.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 222 posts

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#101

Post by canadianwriter »

witnesser2 wrote: post #93

I think some epic SE failures, the DOJ LE should get involved. So the engineers' habit of providing details in written materials is indisputable potential forensic self defense. Like the egg Greg in succession, he has a filmsy shell, but it protects, serves when needed. My first civil engineering trainings, our department head she repeatedly stated and gave examples that 'you may go to jail if you don't follow the de…

...does this make sense. These seem like words that should go together but I can't grok what is being said.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#102

Post by squeaky-clean »

This comment only applies to bug report / support request issues, but my personal rules that seem to work well are:

What happened? What did I expect to happen? What actions did I do to make it happen, or if it's an automated task then mention that.

Then list any errors/logs/etc I've already found that I think are directly relevant.

Then what I've already tried to fix it (if applicable). Then what I think should be tried.

Then any additional logs/errors/etc that I'm not sure are relevant, but also that I'm not sure are irrelevant.

So something like

"Hey I'm trying to deploy X but getting a ModuleNotFoundError for Y in the Jenkins build step. It builds successfully on my local machine. I'm running make deploy-dev and getting the error. Running make deploy-local gives no error.

This is the error [codeblock quote of the relevant error line].

Here is a link to the Jenkins output for my most recent build [link]

I've added the module to setup.py and I see Jenkins says that it installed the module [quote of Jenkins output line]. Maybe clearing the Jenkins cache would help?

This is probably not related but I see Jenkins also logged a JVM Heap Memory warning at the start of the run."

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#103

Post by Jarwain »

johnchristopher wrote: post #82
_greim_ wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. Ah yes, the "shouting up from the rabbit-hole problem". > people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mind" capabilities. I somewhat take issue with this, as people on the spectrum are more likely to over-communicate, all other things being equal. Techies are rather caught in a web of social status pressures.…

> > people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mind" capabilities. > I somewhat take issue with this, as people on the spectrum are more likely to over-communicate, Low theory of mind is definitely not incompatible with over-communication.

If anything over-communication sounds like a coping mechanism!

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#104

Post by skydhash »

hbrn wrote: post #54
ramilefu wrote: post #3

The difficult bit here is the tendency for developers to detest these parts of the job. In my experience, most developers would prefer nothing more than to write code in a cave, never to share a word with anyone. Reviewing a PR, writing documentation, and sharing knowledge are all things taking time away from their passion. I think this is the origin for much of the friction we experience in collaboration and documen…

Spot on. But it's not even about writing. Developers hate communication , in any form. Going remote made it much worse, there's even more ways to avoid communication or turning it async. The only remedy I found is actively forcing people to talk to each other, starting with yourself. Doing a code review? Grab the reviewee in a Slack huddle for 15 minutes, it'll save time for both of you. Need a code review? Grab the…

> The only remedy I found is actively forcing people to talk to each other, starting with yourself.

That's not communication. That is forced socialization.

There are things that are expressed more efficiently in spoken form, but the truth is that spoken words are ephemeral and the mechanism for storing and retrieving them are cumbersome.

I like written communication, it forces you to be more structured in your thinking. And most importantly. It does not require another person to be actually present for this to happen.

> Doing a code review? Grab the reviewee in a Slack huddle for 15 minutes, it'll save time for both of you.

I strongly believe that a review that can be done in a slack hurdle in 15 minutes can be done async in less. And there is the need to actually schedule for that hurdle. And in practice, every one of these hurdles will actually be surrounded by a period of non-productive time.

Programming is thinking work. The actual coding, while visible, is the easiest part. We hate wasteful meetings because it contributes nothing to make thinking easier.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#105

Post by kodah »

_greim_ wrote: post #74
BurningFrog wrote: post #51

Here is my competing take: The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. As in, you talk/write to people as if they know all about your code, except the detail being discussed. In reality, they usually have much less detailed understanding, and you're making no sense to them. I'm pretty sure this is related to people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mi…

> The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. Ah yes, the "shouting up from the rabbit-hole problem". > people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mind" capabilities. I somewhat take issue with this, as people on the spectrum are more likely to over-communicate, all other things being equal. Techies are rather caught in a web of social status pressures.…

I agree, it's really not worth exposing yourself to the risk. Ignorance-Correct can even be interpreted as a micro aggression.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#106

Post by bitwize »

BurningFrog wrote: post #51

Here is my competing take: The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. As in, you talk/write to people as if they know all about your code, except the detail being discussed. In reality, they usually have much less detailed understanding, and you're making no sense to them. I'm pretty sure this is related to people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mi…

I have a tendency to info-dump to establish shared context, and people find that insulting as well. So it can turn into a dilemma of:

Info-dump: "I know that already! What do you think I am, an idiot?"

Assume context: "In English, please! I didn't get my MBA to be made to look like an idiot."

Excuse me for failing to read your mind and know exactly what you know and what you don't before I begin.

Those of us on the spectrum are set up to fail by NT-centric culture. You think we're mind-blind? It goes both ways, look up "double empathy problem". It's just that most people are NT, so by default we have to accommodate your neural quirks but the vice is not versa.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#107

Post by itsmemattchung »

I'd argue that the most important thing to consider when trying to communicate effectively is this: know your audience.

One "low resolution" (using author's terminology) sentence might actually communicate more effectively than a "high resolution" one, given the right context and right audience. Similarly, a "high resolution" text over explain and perhaps even offend the reader.

In short, it depends.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#108

Post by skydhash »

P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #97
Multicomp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The writers among us are quite the minority. Tell me about it. I'm lucky enough to have a supportive manager when I try to define my teams fitness functions, but getting the rest of the team to engage is an exercise in patience testing on all sides. They don't see the value in writing useless essays, shouldn't self documenting code be enough? I don't see the value in skipping high resolution communication up front…

document decisions and move on, why are you asking your team to write essays? Companies bitch about the performance of developers then ask them to do things like this. What's worse is when companies give developers all the responsibility and none of the control.

Very much this. I like to write my documentation in Markdown because it allows me to be fast, while still having some structures. Then I paste the draft in Google Docs when I want to share and have people comment on it. Tooling matters and if I'm the one doing something, I want to actually choose how I'm doing it.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#109

Post by aeze »

bitwize wrote: post #106
BurningFrog wrote: post #51

Here is my competing take: The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. As in, you talk/write to people as if they know all about your code, except the detail being discussed. In reality, they usually have much less detailed understanding, and you're making no sense to them. I'm pretty sure this is related to people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mi…

I have a tendency to info-dump to establish shared context, and people find that insulting as well. So it can turn into a dilemma of: Info-dump: "I know that already! What do you think I am, an idiot?" Assume context: "In English, please! I didn't get my MBA to be made to look like an idiot." Excuse me for failing to read your mind and know exactly what you know and what you don't before I begin. Those of us on the s…

I think there are ways to learn how much context the other party needs - like asking them in the beginning of the conversation.

Re: How to communicate effectively as a developer

#110

Post by pickledish »

bitwize wrote: post #106
BurningFrog wrote: post #51

Here is my competing take: The biggest problem I see in developer communication is what I call the "assumed context" problem. As in, you talk/write to people as if they know all about your code, except the detail being discussed. In reality, they usually have much less detailed understanding, and you're making no sense to them. I'm pretty sure this is related to people "on the spectrum" often having low "theory of mi…

I have a tendency to info-dump to establish shared context, and people find that insulting as well. So it can turn into a dilemma of: Info-dump: "I know that already! What do you think I am, an idiot?" Assume context: "In English, please! I didn't get my MBA to be made to look like an idiot." Excuse me for failing to read your mind and know exactly what you know and what you don't before I begin. Those of us on the s…

When you say “NT-centric culture” I think you’re talking about this, right?

https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/underst...

Post reply on HN