Scotland starts renewed case for independence • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#181

Post by synu » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:29 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #120

maweki wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is holding the pro-independence people to "once in a generation" okay but not holding the contra-independence people to "this is the only way to stay in the EU"? The issue was a vote on staying in the EU as much as staying in the UK. Now these circumstances changed. Also, the promises of further devolution weren't kept either. Again, why are you so hung up on the (let's say) lie of "once in a generation" but not…

> The issue was a vote on staying in the EU as much as staying in the UK I don't even remember it coming up but if it means a lot to you then I can see you'd be aggravated, but how would it obviate the once in a generation pledge? Scotland can't join the EU if it goes independent anyway, the vote to remain really was the only practical way to stay in the EU.

The pledge you’re referring to is something every voter signed during the vote? Or something a politician had said?

Also curious why Scotland is not able to apply if it leaves the UK? Thanks in advance for the info.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#182

Post by emptyfile » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:29 AM UTC

brigandish wrote: post #150

slightwinder wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democratic votes need the consent of the loser, not I didn't get my way so let's have another vote. That's only true till the situation changes. If the reason for your vote disappeared, then it's legit to reevaluate your vote. > a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU Which means two third, the majority, voted for the EU? Seems like a legit reason for a new vote.

Anyone can claim the situation has changed, every year. Life does not go backwards. I'm still not clear why that means "once in a generation" becomes "as soon as I can get what I want". > > a third of those voting for independence also want(ed) independence from the EU > Which means two third, the majority, voted for the EU? Seems like a legit reason for a new vote. Has that figure changed dramatically? Even if it ha…

>I'm still not clear why that means "once in a generation" becomes "as soon as I can get what I want".

Because Brexit, duh?

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#183

Post by prmoustache » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:29 AM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #67

ggm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non Yugoslavian, I regret the breakup of Yugoslavia immensely but I do wonder if any of the former constituent states would agree with you regarding Scotland or me regarding Yugoslavia? Note that it's an open question if the Scots economy would remain worse per capita, not disagreeing there is/was pain ahead in transition.

From former Czechoslovakia, our disintegration was a mixed parcel. The best thing is that Slovaks had to stand on their own feet and their nationalists slowly had stop blaming everything on Prague. This kind of whiny nationalism embodied by then-prime minister of Slovakia Vladimir Meciar is somewhat disgusting and I can see its softer version in Scotland right now. The worst thing is that yes, our international weigh…

> I cannot imagine the economic pain if the former federation was suddenly divided by a hard border, as Scotland and England would be.

It doesn't have to be, even if Scotland was part of EU and not England.

UK and Spain/EU negociated maintaining some of the Schengen rules for the Gibraltar/Spain border despite its status still being disputed by Spain and a bumpy history. There is no reason Scotland and rest of UK cannot have a treaty allowing soft border.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#184

Post by tut-urut-utut » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:30 AM UTC

pojzon wrote: post #49

easytiger wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Which is going to get introduced because nations like Hungary, led by oil oligarchs connected to Russia, want to fk over whole EU for their personal gain. You should work towards stronger union not weaken it.

I am not a Hungarian citizen, but I am grateful that Hungary often has enough courage to call nonsense a nonsense and use or threaten with their veto to bring a bit of sanity in the EU.

Heck, I can say that Hungary voted more frequently in my interest than my government.

The EU is frequently used to push some regulations in favour of big corps that would never pass in any of the national parliaments without a big fight. That's why I'm glad that at least someone sometimes can stop this.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#185

Post by scott_w » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:30 AM UTC

carnitine wrote: post #113

cstross wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my point. UKIP and BXP disintegrated because their more competent members colonized the Conservative Party, which is now much more radical and far-right than it was under Cameron. The only surviving cabinet minister from Cameron's era (2010-2016) is Michael Gove. The rest are all new faces with far right credentials and a commitment to the hardest of hard Brexits.

Who exactly in the cabinet is far right? Truss, Sunak, Javid, Raab and the rest hardly come across as the right wing mob. Rees-Mogg is the only one who maybe comes remotely close and he’s got one of the most minor positions.

Truss is moving to break a treaty to appease the far right nutters in her party.

Javid, as Home Secretary, stripped a teenager of her British citizenship, leaving her stateless and stranded somewhere in Iraq or Syria.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#186

Post by dgb23 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:30 AM UTC

carnitine wrote: post #18

madeofpalk wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around Not judging, I'm honestly curious why you didn't want them to be independent and thought that, "as a Brit" it was your position to have an opinion on Scotland's independence other than "whatever they want"? Me, Australian living in England.

Because fracturing your country and making it poorer and smaller probably isn’t desirable?

Decentralization is a key to robustness. I can't speak for this particular case. But generally I think it is desirable to have. Real sustainable progress often happens in the small and builds bottom up. People in different regions have different needs and ways of doing things. Distributed power leads to less exploitation.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#187

Post by robin_reala » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:30 AM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #156

dankboys wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing says "British far right" like a Cabinet full of ethnic minorities.

Our Home Secretary has just instituted an illegal policy of deporting African and Asian refugees to Rwanda. Irrespective of the colour of her skin, her actions are those of the far right.

I thouroughly disagree with the practice and it’s morally repugnant, but hasn’t it just been court-tested and declared legal?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/10/uk-deportati...

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#188

Post by iso1631 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:30 AM UTC

ggm wrote: post #96

Blackstone4 wrote: post #26

I feel like the Scotts only push hard for independence when the price of oil is high....because it balances the budget and makes independence look more attractive..

Not enough of the reserves lie in Scottish waters. If you look at the sea area mapping the line runs a lot more north by Northeast than people expect. Scotland will make shitloads exporting hydro electricity. Probably more than oil and gas royalties

Even the US and Canada have unresolved maritime borders. I don't see an independent Scotland being happy about the border set in the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#189

Post by mschuster91 » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:30 AM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #13

ivolimmen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Dutch and EU citizen I fully understand their motivation. I also regretted to see England leave the EU.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Yes, the veto powers are the one thing that needs to go real quick if the EU wants a chance at standing on its own legs on the geopolitical table.

Right now, we have governments corrupted by Chinese influence (e.g. by ports and other infrastructure being bought up in Greece and Italy), by Russian influence (just look at Hungary's Orban blocking EU sanctions) or by autocratic/fundamentalist politicians (Hungary, Poland, very nearly France).

Personally, I believe that the US will again fall victim to Trumpian populism in this year's elections and in 2024 they will either re-elect Trump or someone he has groomed to be his puppet. At that point, the US will cease to be an ally that the European Union can rely on, and we will have to be able to stand up to Russia and China - which is going to be impossible if the above-mentioned member states will always threaten to sabotage anything.

We need an urgent reform of the entire EU foundation: the veto powers have to go, the European Parliament needs the right to initiate laws (currently, only the Commission has that right), and there must be a way to suspend governments that grossly violate core European values.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#190

Post by scott_w » Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 11:31 AM UTC

afavour wrote: post #38

carnitine wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

I’d argue that deporting immigrants to Rwanda has a certain far right timbre.

Even worse: refugees