ugh, that was hard to read.
CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
181–190 of 434 posts
Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
The answer to this is related to the answer of: "would you prefer to be in the lower class of Norwegian society or the lower class of nearby Belarussian society?"
Do you think the difference in the standard of life is because of "having the moral ground"?
If morals are how we maintain and encourage the well-being of other humans, then yes.
Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this. I don't understand what you are saying here. More than one group can commit war crimes.
This is referred to as "Whataboutism". Russia has a colorful history of using it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#History
No, it's called pointing out hypocrisy
Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is referred to as "Whataboutism". Russia has a colorful history of using it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#History
I feel like it's still worth considering that despite the existence of this strategy, acknowledging it doesn't necessarily repair the damage of being seen as hypocritical. Evoking "whataboutism" could even be seen as a sort of counter-deflection in some cases.
The solution is simple: don't use whataboutism. Acknowledge history and context and appreciate that moral relativism absolves no one of their own actions.
This case of excusing Russia's invasion of Ukraine because the US commits war crimes is gold medal mental gymnastics and really only makes sense in the context of the history of Russian propaganda.
Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
#185EU should put sanctions on top US leadership and many of the large US based corporations, especially in businesses like banking, media and technology.
What do you think that will accomplish?
Short term: keep US responsible for their actions, otherwise this will just continue.
Long term: a broader separation of US and EU interest, EU does not benefit from many of the US imperial policies, it actually loses on many of them.
Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
The idea that America enforces international law is almost as comical as the idea Russia or China enforces it. America is an international gang not an international cop.
That's fine, but then I'm not sure why you would think something like the ICC would exist in an enforceable or meaningful way. You have a mismatch of expectations. You shouldn't be thrilled that any country has a license to kill you in your sleep. That would include Norway, Australia, Thailand, Russia, Brazil, you name it.
Oh, I dont think its impossible for a supranational entity backed by national militaries to act as a policeman rather than a mafia don.
I just think that America is uniquely incapable of that.
An EU led super power emerging after an American collapse might successfully step into that role. Probably not, but still possible.
Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
#187...isn't the whole idea of such "back sites" that once anyone gets into them, they are NEVER getting out alive? Torture and atrocities asside, I'd imagine most organized crime syndicates run tighter ships (eg. the standard dissolve the bodies of torture victims + kill the "torture service providers" too at regular intervals then re-recruit new ones etc.) ...this seem so beyond sloppy it's clearly a political s throwi…
Organized crime torturing people makes for an interesting TV show plot but in reality it's the exception. Kidnapping and torture carry far harsher penalties than most other (vastly more profitable) crimes. If mobsters want information they usually just pay for it. Money is the best tool for convincing people to betray their convictions and break promises. What was the old saying again? Thirty pieces of silver?
The difference is the CIA doesn't care about making money. They're secret police gone wild. They have no financial, legal or moral constraints, and the results were wholly predictable.
Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m glad that my US constitutional rights cannot be abrogated by a supranational judicial system.
What are the specifics of that? Without more detail, it kind of sounds like you're saying American's shouldn't be responsible for crimes committed abroad if the US doesn't prosecute on behalf of the foreign parties.
We still have extradition treaties — along with due process rights to challenge an international extradition request within the US judicial system.
Additionally, sovereign states are already free to prosecute anyone within their borders.
The ICC, however, would preempt US judicial authority — including the US Supreme Court.
Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Is it possible for you to construct a scenario where torture is morally acceptable? Yes, it's possible to concoct a fictional scenario whereby torturing one person saves millions of lives. Heck, why not a more plausible scenario where torturing someone saves 2 lives. But it's a non-sequitur: a true statement that is irrelevant. I won't argue this well, especially not well enough to convince someone for whom "tortur…
The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy discusses a real case where a car thief stole a car with a child in the backseat. The car thief had abandoned the car somewhere, and, as it was summer and daytime, the child was going to cook to death in the car. The police detain the thief and ask him where the car and child is, they offer to reduce his charges, and he denies it was him though they have him on video stealing t…
Interesting. Imagine that you were the car thief, and did not know about a child, what reason would you have to believe the police? They lie and apply torture to get confessions after all.
Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
Worse? Intel obtaibed at the torture extreme is simply not reliable. The cultural need - at the elites' level - to "break" the opposition is disturbing. And yes,ultimately this manifests in the broader culture. If for no other reason, the elites have become normalized to The Culture of Violence and see no reason to change course. Their power remains safe and intact.
Intel obtaibed at the torture extreme is simply not reliable. Besides a few anecdotes, how many torture debriefings have you read and then cross checked? Unless you’re in the industry, how could you possibly think you have an informed opinion on methods of intelligence gathering?