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CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

theguardian.com

171–180 of 434 posts

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse? Intel obtaibed at the torture extreme is simply not reliable. The cultural need - at the elites' level - to "break" the opposition is disturbing. And yes,ultimately this manifests in the broader culture. If for no other reason, the elites have become normalized to The Culture of Violence and see no reason to change course. Their power remains safe and intact.

Intel obtaibed at the torture extreme is simply not reliable. Besides a few anecdotes, how many torture debriefings have you read and then cross checked? Unless you’re in the industry, how could you possibly think you have an informed opinion on methods of intelligence gathering?

Well, there was a long report about it that came to that conclusion, so

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end, what you are asking comes down to some form of the "Trolley Problem" [0]. The critique towards the Trolley Problem can be directed towards your (very) hypothetical scenario as well: > In a 2014 paper published in the Social and Personality Psychology Compass, researchers criticized the use of the trolley problem, arguing, among other things, that the scenario it presents is too extreme and unconnected to…

Another one to ponder, Ursula K. Le Guin's "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" [1, 2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Om... [2] Full short story: https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/emily.klotz/engl1302-6/rea...

Le Guin really is a treasure - this one always stuck with me as well

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> torture is morally acceptable? Someone stole the car with the baby inside. Police caught the thief, but there is no car or the baby. There is a heatwave and the baby can last max 2h in the car. The thief panicked and dumped the car somewhere. He is not willing to tell where it is. Beating him up to get the info is acceptable ethically.

They can threaten the thief with murder charges, promise a reduced sentence if he tells the location of the car, etc. Do you really think beating up the thief would be more effective? Life is not a hollywood action movie.

> promise a reduced sentence

They did, but it didn't work

> Life is not a hollywood action movie.

This is an example from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#174
post #18

Holy shit. This is nauseating. Why do we tolerate the existence of the US state anymore? What's the point of any of this? I _hate_ the feeling of the smacking the back of my head. And they did it, against a plywood wall, by gripping a towel wrapped around his neck and slamming him into it, for two hours at a time, just to 'train' people. Everyone involved - perpetrators and victims - needs therapy and rehabilitation.…

> do we tolerate the existence of the US state anymore

This is a ridiculous thing to say. I mean, what are you proposing? The whole world sanction the US?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#175
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not especially thrilled with the idea that this can grant you a license to murder me in my sleep with impunity simply because Im not a US citizen. The alternative of supernational courts dispensing justice at an international level is essentially loose federations of gangs doing the same thing. And, when a kid in a crips neighborhood tries to join the bloods...

> I'm not especially thrilled with the idea that this can grant you a license to murder me in my sleep with impunity simply because Im not a US citizen. Doesn't seem to stop other countries from doing this internationally and to their own citizens anyway. Something like the ICC in how you're envisioning things can only work when it's backed by military force. So long story short, it is mainly just the U.S. enforcing…

The idea that America enforces international law is almost as comical as the idea Russia or China enforces it.

America is an international gang not an international cop.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#176
post #150
post #11

This is the kind of stuff that probably makes some people’s job down the pipe easier and at the same time undermines the Western civilization. Make no mistake, no US citizen outside of the political class benefits from this or other atrocities. The exact same goes for the surveillance programs. Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. The whole anti establishment movement rallies around stuff like thi…

>Losing the moral high ground degrades the whole society. How does having "the moral high ground" help the lower class of a society?

Notice that the antiestablishment movement is not about fixing something but taking down the current state(the individual fractions have different ideas on the fix but they unite on the destruction). Not having the moral high grounds enables that because you no longer have a discussion over how to solve issues, everything is about destroying the current order(since it's completely corrupt and immoral, beyond any repair).

You can expect further disruption, collapse of institutions, political or military coups etc and none of these are great for the low class people. As the establishment crumbles, a time for a new order will come and the left wing, the right wing, the QAnon and others will start fighting over the fix. Some will say eat the rich, others will say guns for everyone whoever wins takes it all and many will be concerned on what would lizard overlords do.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#177
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So how can we look at Russia and say they are committing war crimes if the US blatantly does things like this. I don't understand what you are saying here. More than one group can commit war crimes.

This is referred to as "Whataboutism". Russia has a colorful history of using it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#History

I feel like it's still worth considering that despite the existence of this strategy, acknowledging it doesn't necessarily repair the damage of being seen as hypocritical. Evoking "whataboutism" could even be seen as a sort of counter-deflection in some cases.

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#178
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it possible for you to construct a scenario where torture is morally acceptable? Yes, it's possible to concoct a fictional scenario whereby torturing one person saves millions of lives. Heck, why not a more plausible scenario where torturing someone saves 2 lives. But it's a non-sequitur: a true statement that is irrelevant. I won't argue this well, especially not well enough to convince someone for whom "tortur…

The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy discusses a real case where a car thief stole a car with a child in the backseat. The car thief had abandoned the car somewhere, and, as it was summer and daytime, the child was going to cook to death in the car. The police detain the thief and ask him where the car and child is, they offer to reduce his charges, and he denies it was him though they have him on video stealing t…

There's always this. "Is it okay in this highly unusual circumstance where I set it up so that obviously the right answer is to behave terribly?". The world is replete with these questions.

The problem is that these quandaries are then used to justify shitty behavior in other circumstances. What percentage of cop beatings save lives versus total cop beatings? 0.2%? 0.02%? What's the point of your question? What does the knowledge that you will be beaten if a cop suspects you of a terrible crime do to your state of mind? To the safety of police officers? To society?

I'm concocting a situation that I would like you to consider. Answer, please, with just as much gravitas. Let us imagine a society where beating or harassing anyone is absolutely taboo. In this society, no one need ever worry about physical violence. A woman could walk naked from Chicago to California never once being harassed. An elderly man could walk anywhere carrying a fat wallet of cash without fear of physical violence.

There is the rare and occasional thief, however. Now, one of these thieves steals a car and leaves a child baking in the sun in much the circumstances you describe. Beating the thief is the only possible way to save the child from a grizzly, horrendous, agonizing death, screaming alone for her mother.

But, once done, the beating breaks that taboo. Those police officers are a bit more likely to use violence to get what they want. It's a bit contagious, too. Other people begin to use violence. Bear with me, here. Let's say, because that taboo is broken, 100 more people are beaten over the next decade, and 1 or 2 of them die from their injuries. None of them "deserve" it.

Would you say it was worth it, to beat the man to save the life of that child, knowing that 1 or 2 people die and 100 are beaten, directly because of that?

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#179

...isn't the whole idea of such "back sites" that once anyone gets into them, they are NEVER getting out alive? Torture and atrocities asside, I'd imagine most organized crime syndicates run tighter ships (eg. the standard dissolve the bodies of torture victims + kill the "torture service providers" too at regular intervals then re-recruit new ones etc.) ...this seem so beyond sloppy it's clearly a political s throwi…

[deleted]

Re: CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach torture techniques

#180
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not especially thrilled with the idea that this can grant you a license to murder me in my sleep with impunity simply because Im not a US citizen. Doesn't seem to stop other countries from doing this internationally and to their own citizens anyway. Something like the ICC in how you're envisioning things can only work when it's backed by military force. So long story short, it is mainly just the U.S. enforcing…

The idea that America enforces international law is almost as comical as the idea Russia or China enforces it. America is an international gang not an international cop.

That's fine, but then I'm not sure why you would think something like the ICC would exist in an enforceable or meaningful way. You have a mismatch of expectations. You shouldn't be thrilled that any country has a license to kill you in your sleep. That would include Norway, Australia, Thailand, Russia, Brazil, you name it.
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