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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#181

Post by gdaramouskas »

midrus wrote: post #166
jasonkester wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro tip. They can only cut your pay if you let them. Or, rather, if we collectively let them. Make it clear that you won’t accept a pay cut for the same work output. And keep negotiating your full rate for any new position you take, and this won’t affect you at all. Personally, I always bill out at my Bay Area rate regardless of where I’m physically located (and I’ve been located in some pretty strange places). It ha…

Same salary despite where you are living is really unfair. I live in Italy and with a silicon valley salary here I'd be millionaire. It just won't work, companies would find equally qualified people for less money and long term we would all have to move to cheaper places.

I think that the salary should not be a percentage of your life cost rather of the value you create.

Therefore the salary should stay the same wherever I am located.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#183

Post by nucleardog »

dagw wrote: post #152
ceilingcorner wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just rent an office space or coworking desk. Problem solved.

Using a significant chunk of my own salary each month to pay for something I used to get for free (and that my employer should provide) hardly seems like the ideal solution.

I can get some co-working spaces that look infinitely better than the office I was going to for $480/mo. For a dedicated desk with locking storage, etc.

I'm saving at least $400/mo just on parking and gas right now.

Even if my employer wouldn't reimburse anything (never asked), I'd eat the $80/mo to save myself 2-3 hours a day commuting.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#184

Post by idnefju »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

This whole post sounds like you don’t have control of your life. Why do you need to find an excuse to do things you want to do?

Commit to a workout routine, commit to getting food or learning to cook to save money, commit to some mindful exercises to have more focus

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#185

Post by test1235 »

mojuba wrote: post #92
bell-cot wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Didn't read the article - no access With JS disabled, I can read it perfectly well (Firefox, Privacy Badger, and NoScript, from the U.S.A.).

Right, that means there must be an archive.is link for it and of course there is one: https://archive.is/qK9Mk

OT, but how do archive sites work? I assume they don't have full subscriptions to everything, so how do they get around all the different paywalls?

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#186

Post by iblaine »

dan-robertson wrote: post #71
iblaine wrote: post #47

Here's a related graph [1] supporting this conclusion, that remote work has recently increased. This graph shows the frequency of "remote" in HN Who's Hiring posts over time. [1] https://iblaine.github.io/assets/images/projects/graph-remot...

But: - the count of any word probably increases over time. Need proportion instead. But maybe I misunderstood your graph - “the job is currently remote but you will be expected to work from our office in X in the near future”

Valid point, that was some hand wavy analysis on my part. Here's a new graph [1] showing the frequency with a denominator. "remote" seems to show up in every post these days, could be something like "no remote" throws this off...

[1] https://github.com/iblaine/hn-whoshiring-analysis/blob/main/...

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#187

Post by null_object »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

> I can't wait to get back to the office.

> being home and having no external pressure to keep working

> it was easy to get out of the bed and go work out

> I get to just eat lunch from office's cafeteria

> still in my underpants at home after work it is way harder to dress up and go do stuff

The paradox in this situation, is that some employers are considering cutting the pay [0] of people who have the self-discipline, drive and focus to not need the artificial crutch of going into an arbitrary office-space to find the motivation to do their work.

[0]https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/12/google-st...

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#188

Post by jasonkester »

midrus wrote: post #166
jasonkester wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro tip. They can only cut your pay if you let them. Or, rather, if we collectively let them. Make it clear that you won’t accept a pay cut for the same work output. And keep negotiating your full rate for any new position you take, and this won’t affect you at all. Personally, I always bill out at my Bay Area rate regardless of where I’m physically located (and I’ve been located in some pretty strange places). It ha…

Same salary despite where you are living is really unfair. I live in Italy and with a silicon valley salary here I'd be millionaire. It just won't work, companies would find equally qualified people for less money and long term we would all have to move to cheaper places.

Fair isn't what we're optimizing for. The goal is to have knowledge work cost the company the same regardless of where they source it.

So yes, it's true that your cost of living in rural Italy is less than it would be were you to move to an apartment in Palo Alto, and that there will remain a surplus after you have accounted for those expenses. But I'd prefer a world where that surplus was captured by you rather than J. Random Software Company.

After all, you're the one who has to tolerate all those walkable streets and good cheap wine day in, day out, to live there. Gotta balance that somehow...

> companies would find equally qualified people for less money

That's where you're mistaken. The software industry has spent the entire time between 1994 and today hiring every one of those people all over the world. There are only so many of them left who haven't figured out their true value. You certainly aren't going to build a Facebook off of the remaining people who are willing to work for $10/hr. Anybody who is any good will demand a market rate. And that market rate is set in the Bay.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#189

Post by kartikarti »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

I fully agree with the social aspects, but the gym and food argument feels like a lack of self-discipline. Don't start your work if you are still in your underpants !

> Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food. That's extra stress and cognitive pressure that is completely avoided when I get to just eat lunch from office's cafeteria.

Just use money saved on the commute and spend it at the local restaurant or order a catering.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#190

Post by rajeshmr »

I am pro remote working as i do not see a need for physical presence in office for software professionals. The commute kills my soul, and the pointless dressing up for office chores do not excite me at all. And i have observed that am far more effective / productive working from home than i am working from office and the commute time which got freed up, i can spend with family which is great for me. But i can understand if some would like to work out of office. I guess it is individual preference and i hope in the near future both choices are available to employees with no disparities in pay between remote and office workers since value shouldn’t be determined by location.
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