Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with most of this. > I see no reason anyone should have to disprove the existence of consciousness anywhere outside of a fairly advanced brain. There's a fairly big moral reason. Unless we can know what is concious and what is not, it's only right to be on the safe side and treat all organisms as if they are concious. How advanced should the CNS be before there's an obligation to not cause pain for an organis…
I guess I would see this differently: it's fairly hard to prove a chicken is conscious, but it's fairly easy to prove that they can feel pain. I don't think you need consciousness to advocate against cruelty to animals.
Consciousness and the Laws of Physics
181–184 of 184 posts
Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If the program was coded to produce subjective feeling How would such a program work? What would it do in order to produce subjective feelings? You do understand that you can not just write a program to do some arbitrary X if that's not within the capabilities of the hardware it's running on. For example, you cannot write a program that would make the laptop fly. You need something that's physically capable of flyi…
Of course I understand that but you seem to be working from an assumption that brains are not sufficient hardware to run consciousness on. I submit Human wetware is a little more sophisiticated than your avant garde binary computer. That does not mean that consciouness is a superanatural or ethereal process not emanating from the brain.
I did not make such a statement. I made the point that computers certainly are not. Therefore you cannot reduce consciousness to information processing. For many reasons, the most important one is that "information processing" can be used to describe the flow of water in pipes, so if you say that is sufficient to produce consciousness then you must say that the sewage system is conscious.
Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
Last year, a good friend of my friend passed away. His death affected my friend deeply to the point that my friend was determined to find evidence of the continuance of consciousness after death and becoming extremely depressed. My friend believes that life is utterly meaningless if there is no consciousness after death, to the point where he's considering suicide because once he's dead he wouldn't know he committed…
It sounds like your friend is less worried about consciousness in general disappearing and more worried about his consciousness disappearing. Consciousness as thing can never completely go away. Even if the universe dies out, given enough time, even if the span of time seems infinite, a new hospitable universe will be born that contains conscious beings. If this wasn't true, how could we even exist right now?
Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
I never made a concrete claim that consciousness is located in a specific brain region. I speculated that, but the truth is we don't know if it's one sub-region which represents consciousness, or a combination of many. As for "how it interfaces with the purported non conscious parts of the body", this part is incredibly obvious. Afferent nerves take information from sensory receptors into the brain, and efferent neur…
> I never made a concrete claim that consciousness is located in a specific brain region. I speculated that, but the truth is we don't know if it's one sub-region which represents consciousness, or a combination of many. Perfect, thanks for admitting what you don’t know. Now tell me how can you be confident that it has to be exclusively “brain” regions if you can't even point to the locale. Why can't it be brain regi…
When did I say individual neurons cary information? I said: "the interface is the set of synapses carrying information into and out of that region." A set of neurons surely can represent and process information.
> In sum, only thing we know is brain is involved in consciousness, it is a constituent of it, but we have no information as to what the exact list of constituents are, and research points in the direction of body being involved just as much.
Just as much? Really?
Stephen hawking certainly seemed to achieve a high level of consciousness, and his body didn't do much of anything.
> This was actually controlled for in the experiment with binding feet, and the effect was sustained.
I don't find this convincing. When I am sitting down and having a conversation, I am much more likely to be in the habit of using my hands than my feet, so it's going to be more distracting to take my hands away.
If hands are really involved in consciousness, you would have to show me a study where double amputees show cognitive impairment relative to control.
But to address your other points, let me restate my argument in a simple way:
1. Consciousness is one of the most complex phenomena we are aware of, which involves information processing and the unification of a lot of high-level functions we can locate in the brain, like language, decision making, emotion, value judgements and so on.
2. The 3lb lump of jelly in your head you call a brain is the most complex organ we are aware of, and we understand in a very detailed way how it is able to process information through chemical and physical processes.
3. Experimentally, we can induce profound and repeatable effects on consciousness through chemical and physical interventions on the brain.
4. Basically we know of no other way to have said profound and repeatable effects on consciousness besides intervening with the chemical or physical action of the brain. (I know you are going to argue with me on this, but you're going to have to show me more evidence than "mild cognitive impairment).
So we don't know know, but I think it's a fairly strong bet that the brain is responsible for consciousness. What other system can you point to which would be capable of the job?
To address the "brain in a vat" question, I would return to the car example you loved so much. If we put a car in a weightless vacuum (assuming we can still provide oxygen to the engine for combustion), when we step on the gas, the car is not going anywhere, but we still understand that capable of everything required to create forward motion under normal circumstances. By the same token, I would wager that a brain is capable of "doing consciousness" - whatever that physical process is - without inputs and outputs.
And we can see that. That's essentially what dreaming is. That's essentially what a heavy dose of LSD does.
And to give you a thought experiment: what if we could simulate all the inputs and outputs to our brain-in-a-vat perfectly? What if we wired up fake synapses that acted exactly like biological ones, but they were controlled by a computer instead of responding to reality. What do you expect would be the difference between that brain and the one in your head which would deny it consciousness as you experience?
And if you think it wouldn't be conscious because it lacks a body, let's go a different way. Let's say you start with a brain in a body, and then neuron by neuron, we replace all the organic inputs and outputs with an artificial one. We're already doing it with ocular implants and advanced prosthetics. When would you reach the threshold where this brain was no longer conscious?
It seems like you want me to explain the exact mechanisms for consciousness before you will be satisfied that it's located within the brain. I can't do that. Nobody can. But we can observe that the brain - even an incomplete brain - is necessary and sufficient to produce consciousness. We can observe that physiologically it's the most likely candidate. I would say the burden of proof is vary high to assert that we should look elsewhere.