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Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

philpapers.org

171–180 of 184 posts

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#171
post #16

Personally, it amazes me how many people find it difficult to believe or accept, that human consciousness would just be an emergent property of how neural cells function and are connected together. That all of human consciousness would reside on a higher level than the laws of molecular physics and chemistry. That consciousness emerges from the level of cell biology. No need to postulate anything supernatural, or any…

I find your statement paradoxical and a Straw Man because it is reductionists (generally those with a strong and first training in hard science) that have a problem with mind being an emergent property while non-reductionists do not suggest that mind is beyond the laws of physics. I think you are arguing against Dualism while ignoring the entire modern field of Philosophy of Mind. Granted, most are not Philosophers of Mind and most are religious and therefore dualists... but they are not philosophers nor do they provide any supporting or dissenting arguments. And even the reductionists will say things like "I have a body," rather than what we should expect, "I am a body." There is more to Philosophy of Mind than dualists and non-dualists... such as Behavioralism, Functionalism, etc., there is a long list of perspectives.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#172
post #6

Here's my attempt at a tldr. 1. The laws of physics at the time scales, space scales, and energies of the human brain are "known" and we have deep reasons to believe that more will not be discovered. He spends a great deal of space explaining and arguing that the credence that physics is "complete" in this regime should be very, very high. 2. Given the current laws of physics, there is no place or room for non-physic…

> Anyone who wants a non-physicalist approach to consciousness must either claim they can violate the laws of physics in our brains, or cannot affect the physical world.

There is a strand in (an obscure corner of) Buddhism that maintains that:

- The fundamental "substance" in the Universe is awareness.

- Awareness creates the body and the sense organs.

- Awareness projects the external world through the sense organs.

In this model, there is no claim that consciousness violates "the laws of physics". It just disputes that the physical world is fundamental. And this model certainly doesn't ban consciousness from affecting the physical world (that it created).

I don't believe for a moment that this model was meant to explain things, like a scientific explanation; it's meant to present a "view" (a way of looking at experience) that is helpful to meditators. It's very much the opposite of the instinctive way of interpreting experience. In part, it's meant to disrupt pre-conceived notions about experience - so it's also meant as a challenge.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#173

There's two classes of people in this world. The ones wishing to believe in nonsense and the others that prefer logic. Consciousness is just a human word that expresses nothing more than a fallacy that attracts people that prefer faith. Similar to quantum mechanics if one is ever capable of understanding superdeterminism. Hilariously the support that exists for the former, reflects the state of society and how humani…

logic can’t describe reality

Godel, Wittgenstein, et al

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#174
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the program was coded to produce subjective feeling, no. Otherwise, it would suprise me very much. I believe what we call consciousness is selected for and is written into the structure our brains have. I do not beleive that consciouness exists outside of living brains. Maybe I am wrong but so far there has not been much evidence. I also do not believe consciousness is simply an accident but that it was specifical…

> If the program was coded to produce subjective feeling How would such a program work? What would it do in order to produce subjective feelings? You do understand that you can not just write a program to do some arbitrary X if that's not within the capabilities of the hardware it's running on. For example, you cannot write a program that would make the laptop fly. You need something that's physically capable of flyi…

Of course I understand that but you seem to be working from an assumption that brains are not sufficient hardware to run consciousness on. I submit Human wetware is a little more sophisiticated than your avant garde binary computer. That does not mean that consciouness is a superanatural or ethereal process not emanating from the brain.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#175
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. Things that we agree on being named the same we call 'real'. Imagine this, say what everyone perceives as the color red I perceive it as what everyone else perceives as yellow. But since I have been taught the name of the colors by these people, I will end up matching the names of the colors although I am perceiving something very different. This needs to be considered in debates on whether animals have…

> Only thing we have is their observable external behavior. If that is consistent with the 'consciousness' hypothesis, then that's all we can say. In that case we have about as much evidence of presence of consciousness that a fellow human ... It's been mind boggling to me for years that this isn't the default accepted position. That most intelligent life (ie animals) are conscious just like us. Look at what dogs, ca…

I'm a little confused here. Is it the accepted scientific dogma somewhere that other mammals aren't conscious?

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#176
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too! However why stop at Indian philosophy?

My aim is evaluate the metaphysical claims of Indian philosophy from the perspective of the most holistic account of reality that we can acquire in the 21st century. This will obviously include studying other streams of knowledge that has anything to say about reality. As to why Indian philosophy - this primarily stems from my Indian background. I have always wondered if the claims of Indian philosophy can be validat…

Can I recommend Donald Hoffman’s lectures and discussions? They might correlate, as there seems to be common threads in his take to that of the general cosmology/consciousness model as the Theosophists and Rudolph Steiner (Waldorf Schools), which were summarily heavily influenced by ancient Indian mysticism among other branches.

Hoffman might give you a pretty good launching point for some of the scientific aspects as they relate as he apparently tries to keep up with what’s new in theoretical math and physics and how they relate to what we’re once purely metaphysical positions. (Ex. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplituhedron)

Some of it is purely awesome stuff. It’s easy to get swept away by it, so if you don’t want to rock your worldview it’s best to keep the work somewhat cordoned to its own intellectual space.

If nothing else it’s a fun thought experiment and some perspective.

Good luck in your pursuit.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#177
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe the most plausible explanation is that there is a precise structural and functional integration located in the brain which gives rise to consciousness. Without sufficiently explicating what that structure may be and how it interfaces with the purported non conscious parts of the body, it is too big of a leap to claim that a locale that is not even the whole brain is essential to consciousness. Regarding t…

I never made a concrete claim that consciousness is located in a specific brain region. I speculated that, but the truth is we don't know if it's one sub-region which represents consciousness, or a combination of many. As for "how it interfaces with the purported non conscious parts of the body", this part is incredibly obvious. Afferent nerves take information from sensory receptors into the brain, and efferent neur…

> I never made a concrete claim that consciousness is located in a specific brain region. I speculated that, but the truth is we don't know if it's one sub-region which represents consciousness, or a combination of many.

Perfect, thanks for admitting what you don’t know. Now tell me how can you be confident that it has to be exclusively “brain” regions if you can't even point to the locale. Why can't it be brain regions + sensorimotor loop for example?

> As for "how it interfaces with the purported non conscious parts of the body", this part is incredibly obvious. Afferent nerves take information from sensory receptors into the brain, and efferent neurons transport motor signals from the brain to the muscles.

Let’s stick with the credibly obvious. You’re not describing me the interface, you’re merely talking about general pathways. I am asking you the location of the entrance of Walmart, you’re describing me the highway that takes you to the general direction. The truth is, we don't know the entrance(s).

> There's no mystery at all about the interface: if consciousness is a product of some sub-region of the brain, the interface is the set of synapses carrying information into and out of that region.

“Information”? Individual neurons can’t carry information any more than a single fiber of your Cat5 twister pairs can carry an http header. At best neurons are carrying data that eventually is made into information. Guess what is the bulk content of that data? Sensory data. And it is more a multi-directional protocol of information processing than mere transport of dead data.

Remove all of that, even if just the history of any sensory input, what is consciousness conscious of exactly? Thoughts? Are they formulated in language? Where did the brain-in-the-vat learn the language from, why did it learn it? There is more than one way your argument doesn't add up.

> You can amputate an arm or a leg, and consciousness remains intact.

You’re right. Also you can damage brain regions, and consciousness remains intact. But by that token maybe amputated arm and leg was just not critical enough to reduce consciousness, like those removed brain regions? Maybe a more severe disembodiment is required before consciousness is impeded? Therefore your example proves little.

Conversely, you can induce so much sensory pain that consciousness is overwhelmed, diminishes or is entirely lost. Phenomenon like chronic pain evidence some amount of peripheral processing. Phenomenon like blindsight point to learning without conscious awareness.

In sum, only thing we know is brain is involved in consciousness, it is a constituent of it, but we have no information as to what the exact list of constituents are, and research points in the direction of body being involved just as much.

> This one is very easy to explain and there's no revelation there ... they must spend some of their cognitive capacity thinking about their hands, so they're going to do worse at everything else relative to baseline.

This was actually controlled for in the experiment with binding feet, and the effect was sustained. (Alibali, M. W., Spencer R. C., Knox L., & Kita S. (2011) and Davoli, C. C., Brockmole J. R., & Goujon A. (2011)) There are a great many deal of papers on this topic by the way, as embodied cognition is a very active research area.

> I would argue the evidence is incredibly strong that consciousness is localized at least within the brain, if not within a more specialized subset of the brain.

Yes you keep making willful assertions of the strength and obviousness of your claims, but you fail to provide any evidence that back you up with proportional certainty. I'm sorry but you can't just handwavingly disregard any research that disconfirms your perspective and make rhetoric/sophistry do the heavylifting of your argumentation.

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is as good as any sensible hypothesis: it allows us to focus on a more promising direction of research.

A hypothesis is an unproved proposition that is actually susceptible to proof (or disproof). That is, it must make testable predictions. What predictions, testable in principle, are made by this "emergent phenomenon" hypothesis?

Well, philosophy is different from (positive) science in that regard. Yes, you have to realize that the notion of emergent phenomena belongs to philosophy, where a hypothesis (it can be said that philosophy consists of hypotheses) can only be "proven" indirectly, from relevant experience (such as scientific research).

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "degree" of consciousness is certainly a function of the number of neurons functionally specialized for this particular purpose.

Is your "certainly" analogous to the way young folk today use the word "literally"?

As in "no doubt."

Re: Consciousness and the Laws of Physics

#180
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. Things that we agree on being named the same we call 'real'. Imagine this, say what everyone perceives as the color red I perceive it as what everyone else perceives as yellow. But since I have been taught the name of the colors by these people, I will end up matching the names of the colors although I am perceiving something very different. This needs to be considered in debates on whether animals have…

> say what everyone perceives as the color red I perceive it as what everyone else perceives as yellow. This is part of the "knowledge argument": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_argument

It doesn't matter how one person perceives "red". What matter is they can consistently agree with other about what things are red what not.

It is a bit like a web-page with many dom-elements on it, each having its own id. The id is like our perceptions. The id is arbitrary but what matters is that the same id always refers to the same dom-element.

I mean I don't even know what I perceive when I perceive red. I just perceive and use the id "red" for it. The thing is that in our brain there is some kind of an id associated with our experience of redness. When we experience it we say hey I recognize this experience as something familiar, so I will use the same id 'red' to describe it as I have before.

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