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Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

nytimes.com

181–190 of 550 posts

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#181

Free speech is table stakes for a free society. Those claiming otherwise are playing with fire.

Most societies function perfectly fine without a constitutional protection for speech. In fact a few countries rank better than the United States on press freedom without it.

The 1st Amendment is a hell of a lot more than freedom of the press.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#182
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know free speech isn't the only civil liberty right?

Much like they just stay out of 2nd amendment… https://www.aclu.org/blog/civil-liberties/mobilization/aclus... As I support their efforts generally. I find picking and choosing seems counter to the what protecting our civil liberties means in a whole.

Its not a pick and choose if they fundamentally disagree with the interpretation of the amendment.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has never been a society where this is true. Certainly where I live, in the US, free speech is code for "white men are allowed to say whatever they want" while the speech of other groups can be violently repressed without consequence.

Yet here you are. Using your free speech to spread your anti-white message. Your voice is very repressed indeed. Shame you can't just say what you really want.

I don’t see how the message is anti-white. The claim seems to be that “free speech” has become something of a dog whistle. It’s certainly true where I am, and as a supporter of free speech I dislike the association!

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#184
post #4

You could write a similar article about a lot of nonprofits, lately. "Once a Developer of Web Browsers, Mozilla Faces an Identity Crisis." "Once a Free Online Encyclopedia, the Wikimedia Foundation Faces an Identity Crisis."

I think theres probably an interesting full book here examining exactly how and why "cause based" orgs become all end up looking the same once they cross a certain threshold. Power, influence and money seem to be a magnet for more of itself, so it fundamentally shifts the guiding principal of each org as it grows bigger. Like why do no-profits and charities seem to corrupt their aim at a greater speed than for profit…

People of the type needed to run an organization like the ACLU are rare. You need people who are willing to stand on principal even when it makes them unpopular, and who are skilled enough that they could be making a lot of money for themselves in the corporate sector, but are willing to forgo that. The failure mode of this is attention seeking "activist" types, and people who don't have the skills to cut it in the for-profit world. For profit businesses also have a failure mode like this too, where the initial leadership who got there off being innovative and willing to take risks are replaced by boring MBA types who are just there for the paychecks. But in this case, the people taking over are both more in line with the objectives of the organization (to make money) and more competent than the incompetent / activist types who take over non-profits.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most societies function perfectly fine without a constitutional protection for speech. In fact a few countries rank better than the United States on press freedom without it.

This isn’t an argument about how good political scientists think journalists have it. The dispute is about free speech rights. For the people, plebeians of no special importance, not a priestly class with graduate degrees who have been anointed journalists by getting their Masters from the right J school, or getting an Ivy League degree.

So what would you choose as a measurement of how free speech is in a country? Usually the press is chosen since it's job in a functioning free country is to scrutinize the state and other powers. So if the press is free and it is free to distribute it's voice unimpeded by corporate or state influence then it is considered a more free state.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#186

Free speech is table stakes for a free society. Those claiming otherwise are playing with fire.

Most societies function perfectly fine without a constitutional protection for speech. In fact a few countries rank better than the United States on press freedom without it.

The press freedom index places Burkina Faso, a country that bans journalists from visiting displacement camps, higher than the US, so I'm a little skeptical of its findings

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know free speech isn't the only civil liberty right?

It seems to me that certain people fixate on free speech because they have the luxury to be able to. It's like once they've progressed past a certain level of Maslow's hierarchy they forget about the previous levels. First step of the free speech agenda: Breathe.

No, people fixate on free speech because no other right even makes sense if you don't have free expression. It's the foundation for our democratic society.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#188
post #138
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. I was turned off by the “my way or the highway” mentality on trans issues shown in their Twitter. Failure to defend 2A rights, now that NRA is clearly not principled in any way (maybe it never was), also bothered me. It is hard to imagine them defending an anti-trans person in 2021. As despicable as those people are, they still have civil rights. As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 1…

NRA never was, they wrote or substantially contributed to most of the Gun Laws we have today, they comprised the 2nd amendment way in never ending trail of "reasonable gun control" [1] GOA and SAF (Second Amendment Foundation) are far far better when it comes to actual legal challenges to laws that infringe the 2nd Amendment [1] https://i.imgur.com/TO8BGgw.png

At this point, I think the NRA exists only to act as a foil for gun control groups. I have donated to both of the groups you mentioned as I think that they're both lightyears ahead of the NRA when it comes to actually doing anything.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What speech is illegal? What is the list of words not allowed by law to be spoken?

Inciting "imminent lawless action" through speech is illegal in the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action

This hardly qualifies as "lots of speech".

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#190
post #22

I like this idea: https://twitter.com/kittypurrzog/status/1401610476237197312 The ACLU should split into two groups: ACLU Sr, which fights for free speech rights, and ACLU Jr, which fights against them (Yes, I saw this when PG retweeted it.)

2x the donations

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