Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#131

Post by calvinmorrison » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

himinlomax wrote: post #114

akvadrako wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty stupid position, since it's pretty clear the 2nd amendment is saying that it's a right of "the people". The preface is to explain the reason it's a right, that is to form the Militia, which is commonly understood to consist of most able-bodied men. If individuals aren't allowed to own and practice with weapons normally, then when it's needed the Militia will not be "well-regulated", as in well-armed o…

Look, you're entitled to interpret the 2nd amendment the way you do, but the fact is that it is a short bit of text and yet it includes the words "a well regulated militia." It's perfectly reasonable to believe those four words are there for a good reason. Gun rights activists choose to ignore those words. If their position deserve any respect, the one that does not ignore them evidently deserves at least as much.

Its interesting to look at my States constitution, which predates the federal constitution.

" Sect. XXI. That the right of the citizens to bear arms, in defence of themselves and the state, shall not be questioned. "

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#132

Post by toiletfuneral » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

asabjorn wrote: post #108

LatteLazy wrote: post #96

I don't understand why you would join the ACLU if you don't actually support the first ammendment and the stances the ACLU has taken? Seriously. Why? Its like joining a bowling league and complaining that you want to play soccer.

Its got a huge endowment and a strong brand that can be subverted into fighting for progressive causes instead of what it used to do. It's woke 101 playbook. Basecamp and coinbase showed that you either choose to have zero tolerance of politics in the workplace, or the woke will make you spend as many resources as possible on political activism instead of whatever you used to do. A dynamic that has been so toxic to w…

What does the term “woke” mean in this comment? You use it like it has a specific set of definitions I should know, but it mostly looks like a catch-all for any uncomfortable positions someone would rather not confront.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#133

Post by akvadrako » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

himinlomax wrote: post #114

akvadrako wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty stupid position, since it's pretty clear the 2nd amendment is saying that it's a right of "the people". The preface is to explain the reason it's a right, that is to form the Militia, which is commonly understood to consist of most able-bodied men. If individuals aren't allowed to own and practice with weapons normally, then when it's needed the Militia will not be "well-regulated", as in well-armed o…

Look, you're entitled to interpret the 2nd amendment the way you do, but the fact is that it is a short bit of text and yet it includes the words "a well regulated militia." It's perfectly reasonable to believe those four words are there for a good reason. Gun rights activists choose to ignore those words. If their position deserve any respect, the one that does not ignore them evidently deserves at least as much.

You're being obtuse; I explained why those words were there.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#134

Post by dale_glass » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

FeepingCreature wrote: post #111

dale_glass wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what I get from reading it. You could give that a try. Here's an interesting bit: > The A.C.L.U. of Virginia argued that this violated the free speech rights of the far-right groups and won, preserving the right for the group to parade downtown. With too few police officers who reacted too passively, the demonstration turned ugly and violent; in addition to fistfights, the far right loosed anti-Semitic and…

> I see this as a conflict between deontology and consequentialism. Deontology says "free speech was defended, the outcome doesn't matter. Let's keep going". But it turns out that deontology isn't that great of a fit for the real world, because people do care about consequences very intensely. Few have the iron-clad nerve needed to say "an innocent died as the consequence of my/my group's actions, and nevertheless I…

> I see this all the time in the so-called "paradox of tolerance", which is of course only a paradox if you assume a consequentialist framework as unstated background assumption.

Everyone is consequentialist in some measure. It's in human nature.

In the end, we all want to be happy and to enjoy life, and to be proud of our work, and as a result we care when things get in the way of that.

You can see plenty evidence of this in modern times. Eg, to pick something a bit less dramatic, Brexit didn't work out so well for a lot of fishermen that supported it, and it's not hard to find news of them being very upset by this and demanding change. It turns out having sovereignty doesn't make one all that happy when it threatens one's own livelihood.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#135

Post by digianarchist » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

slowmovintarget wrote: post #31

Free speech is table stakes for a free society. Those claiming otherwise are playing with fire.

Most societies function perfectly fine without a constitutional protection for speech. In fact a few countries rank better than the United States on press freedom without it.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#136

Post by javagram » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:38 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #102

asabjorn wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please provide examples where you think fire should have stepped in? Universities are hardly right-wing institutions that fire academics for left-wing research, quite to the contrary "academics" too often engage in indoctrination instead of teaching students to engage a subject to mastery. We are at such a bad point that even harvard is so stooped in dialectic that it argue 2+2 is not always 4, something an e…

It'd reveal my identity. More broadly, these faculty members include researchers who work in: * climate science (death threats, widespread media attacks, attempts from politicians to cancel grants) * digital privacy (death threats) * history of policing (death threats, attacks from Hannity, attacks from the Hoover institute trying to prevent her thesis from being accepted) * history of women in medieval europe (see b…

https://www.thefire.org/fire-statement-unc-trustees-alleged-...

FIRE issued a statement about investigating UNC chapel hill. Do you have any information that NHJ approached them to represent her in a lawsuit and was turned down?

Your other examples are pretty vague but if they are secret enough that you can’t link to them, why would you expect FIRE to have learned of them? Is this inside information you have about the professor reaching out to FIRE and being turned down?

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#137

Post by BurningFrog » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:38 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #2

I was a member for 10 years and stopped renewing a year or two ago, when it seemed to stop putting free speech and expression first.

I have a similar history.

My replacement donations are Fire and Institute for Justice.

https://www.thefire.org/ https://ij.org/

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#138

Post by syshum » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:38 PM UTC

nxc18 wrote: post #21

jseliger wrote: post #2

I was a member for 10 years and stopped renewing a year or two ago, when it seemed to stop putting free speech and expression first.

Same. I was turned off by the “my way or the highway” mentality on trans issues shown in their Twitter. Failure to defend 2A rights, now that NRA is clearly not principled in any way (maybe it never was), also bothered me. It is hard to imagine them defending an anti-trans person in 2021. As despicable as those people are, they still have civil rights. As a gay man, I would have been despicable for most of the past 1…

NRA never was, they wrote or substantially contributed to most of the Gun Laws we have today, they comprised the 2nd amendment way in never ending trail of "reasonable gun control" [1]

GOA and SAF (Second Amendment Foundation) are far far better when it comes to actual legal challenges to laws that infringe the 2nd Amendment

[1] https://i.imgur.com/TO8BGgw.png

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#139

Post by javagram » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

asabjorn wrote: post #108

LatteLazy wrote: post #96

I don't understand why you would join the ACLU if you don't actually support the first ammendment and the stances the ACLU has taken? Seriously. Why? Its like joining a bowling league and complaining that you want to play soccer.

Its got a huge endowment and a strong brand that can be subverted into fighting for progressive causes instead of what it used to do. It's woke 101 playbook. Basecamp and coinbase showed that you either choose to have zero tolerance of politics in the workplace, or the woke will make you spend as many resources as possible on political activism instead of whatever you used to do. A dynamic that has been so toxic to w…

What the ACLU does is inherently political, talking about basecamp and coinbase here doesn’t make much sense to me.

The question facing the ACLU is should they be partisan (fight for the rights of just one side) or merely political (fight for all side’s rights, even the sides that you disagree with).

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#140

Post by seventytwo » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

Strange how no one bats an eye when any other advocacy group defines in their own way their goals or values, but when it’s the ACLU that does it, people lose their minds.

No one cares that the NRA only gives a crap about half of 2A. No one cares that the federalist Society has a very specific view of the judiciary… but when the ACLU defines a cause in their own way, people go nuts with accusations of hypocrisy because it doesn’t line up with their own personal definition of “civil liberties”.