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In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

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Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#181

Post by brodo »

thu2111 wrote: post #42
pengaru wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask yourself what country is responsible for the war on drugs fueling the black market funding the cartels.

Nearly all of them? This problem is not caused by some weird, out of line policy of the USA. Basically nowhere wants hard drugs on the streets. And some places that experimented with legalisation rolled it back or changed their approach. Where I live there are still quite a few places with junkie lights, remnants of a hands off approach some decades ago. It led to a central public park becoming completely taken over…

The US is the leading force in the war on drug users since the International Opium Convention in 1912. Others are complicit, but the US is the main force behind it.

You mentioned that some countries legalized drugs and them rolled back. Can you give examples?

Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#182

Post by ALittleLight »

dvt wrote: post #9
ALittleLight wrote: post #4

If I were running things in Mexico I would legalize or decriminalize all drugs. Setup compounds to securely house the police forces. Change the policy to "balazos, muchos balazos".

> If I were running things in Mexico I would legalize or decriminalize all drugs This is a naïve "Bernie bro"-style take. What do you with cartel turf wars? Legalize murder? The problem is not only complex on a local scale (city or country), but there are geopolitical pressures at play as well. Cartels tend to be very populist, often funneling money back in their communities making them (paradoxically) better. On the…

I don't think it is naive at all. Drug decriminalization programs have success in the Netherlands and Portugal. Prohibition on drugs is similar to prohibition on alcohol in the US in that it is a source of funding for organized crime.

The source of the violence in Mexico is drug cartels. Drug cartels take profit from the illegal drug trade. Eliminate the illegal drug trade and you will greatly reduce the funding for organized crime.

Attacking their funding is the solution. Cartels would not be popular if they did not have money. If they cannot smuggle illegal drugs they will have lots less money.

Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#183

Post by vagrantJin »

qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #31

I'm reminded of this recent viral Youtube which depicts what is apparently a routine occurrence in South Africa: A professional gang, armed with heavy caliber weapons, executes a sophisticated highway ambush in an attempt to capture a vehicle loaded with cell phones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvqDF3Wujc I watched an interview with Leo Prinsloo, the star of the video. He mentioned that although this incident we…

The article is about Mexican cartels taking the fight to the police.

As a South African, I worry that our crime levels probably get more attention than they deserve. The are certainly not much more than any other country. Even on platforms like HN, a few people watch a few videos and see a few social media posts. Conclude the country must be rife with violent crime and proceed to happily spread the word, even when no one asked or whether it's relevant to the topic.

South africa is not a police state. Surveillance and obsessing about would-be crimes is not on the agenda. Police respond to crime and act accordingly. Just like everywhere else.

Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#184

Post by Sacho »

vagrantJin wrote: post #183
qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #31

I'm reminded of this recent viral Youtube which depicts what is apparently a routine occurrence in South Africa: A professional gang, armed with heavy caliber weapons, executes a sophisticated highway ambush in an attempt to capture a vehicle loaded with cell phones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvqDF3Wujc I watched an interview with Leo Prinsloo, the star of the video. He mentioned that although this incident we…

The article is about Mexican cartels taking the fight to the police. As a South African, I worry that our crime levels probably get more attention than they deserve. The are certainly not much more than any other country. Even on platforms like HN, a few people watch a few videos and see a few social media posts. Conclude the country must be rife with violent crime and proceed to happily spread the word, even when no…

It's difficult to compare crime statistics due to the nature of what is criminalized being different, but the numbers for South Africa are stark enough for this to not matter.

Here's a report from the SA police on crime for 2020 - https://businesstech.co.za/news/government/421424/south-afri...

I can see that there were 22k murders on a population of about 60 million.

I couldn't find USA crime statistics for 2020, which has seen a surge of murders; but the 2019 statistics show 19k murders on a population of over 300 million. Even taking the increase into account, that's a factor difference of x4-5.

Here's wikipedia's page on intentional homicide rate by country - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

SA's rate of 36 for 2018 is only surpassed by countries in Central America, like Venezuela and Honduras. The US's rate for 2018 is 5.

Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#185

Post by audunw »

coolspot wrote: post #111
observr9 wrote: post #80

Will this trend lead to fewer and fewer people joining law enforcement, which would further weaken the government? Regarding whether this constitutes a "failed state", I'd say it depends on how bad this gets. Similar to the concept of "peaceful transfer of power", there also needs to be a relatively peaceful maintenance of power. Politicians, judges and law enforcement are the very people who constitute a functional…

Which kinda reminds me of “defund the police” and “ACAB” movements in the US, promoting that all cops are bad and no good person should join police force. I don’t think it does any good for future crime rates.

> Which kinda reminds me of “defund the police” and “ACAB” movements in the US, promoting that all cops are bad and no good person should join police force.

This sounds like a huge mischaracterization of the movements to me. From what I've seen it seems the movement mainly has two goals: - Demilitarize the police, i.e. don't let them buy toys that are overpowered for the work they're supposed to do. - Don't make the police do tasks that are better handled by others. Like, don't put all the responsibility of dealing with mentally ill people. Move money from the police to various departments/institutes that can help and treat people with mental illness.

> I don’t think it does any good for future crime rates.

It's much worse to neglect mental health, to remove social security systems, and to let income inequality get out of hand. That's the point of "defund the police". Invest in policies that reduce the need for a militarized police, by treating the illness rather than spending money on dealing with the symptoms.

Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#186

Post by tayo42 »

coolspot wrote: post #111
observr9 wrote: post #80

Will this trend lead to fewer and fewer people joining law enforcement, which would further weaken the government? Regarding whether this constitutes a "failed state", I'd say it depends on how bad this gets. Similar to the concept of "peaceful transfer of power", there also needs to be a relatively peaceful maintenance of power. Politicians, judges and law enforcement are the very people who constitute a functional…

Which kinda reminds me of “defund the police” and “ACAB” movements in the US, promoting that all cops are bad and no good person should join police force. I don’t think it does any good for future crime rates.

> promoting that all cops are bad and no good person should join police force.

This is not what defund the police was about. This is misinformed. It was about reducing the amount of things police do and giving those responsibilities to people better trained for it. Also getting rid of things like military equipment.

Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#187

Post by Red_Tarsius »

"Not a failed state"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_San_Fernando_massacre

>Mass murder of 193 people by Los Zetas drug cartel at La Joya ranch in the municipality of San Fernando, Tamaulipas, Mexico in March 2011. Authorities investigating the massacre reported numerous hijackings of passenger buses on Mexican Federal Highway 101 in San Fernando, and the kidnapped victims were later killed and buried in 47 clandestine mass graves.

>Reports mentioned that female kidnapping victims were raped and able-bodied male kidnapping victims were forced to fight to the death with other hostages, where they were given knives, hammers, machetes and clubs to find recruits who were willing to kill for their lives. In the blood sport, the survivor was recruited as a hitman for Los Zetas.

Just another day in Mexico. The S. Fernando massacre is not to be confused with another mass kidnapping of students in 2014. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Iguala_mass_kidnapping

Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#188

Post by 0xy »

tayo42 wrote: post #186
coolspot wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which kinda reminds me of “defund the police” and “ACAB” movements in the US, promoting that all cops are bad and no good person should join police force. I don’t think it does any good for future crime rates.

> promoting that all cops are bad and no good person should join police force. This is not what defund the police was about. This is misinformed. It was about reducing the amount of things police do and giving those responsibilities to people better trained for it. Also getting rid of things like military equipment.

50% of black Americans agree that MORE police are needed on the street, according to a 2020 study. [1]

To campaign for their reduction is to campaign against the interests of black people. In fact, it sounds incredibly racist to suggest black people can't decide this and their voice needs to be trampled upon.

[1] https://www.vox.com/2020/6/17/21292046/black-people-abolish-...

Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#189

Post by tayo42 »

0xy wrote: post #188
tayo42 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> promoting that all cops are bad and no good person should join police force. This is not what defund the police was about. This is misinformed. It was about reducing the amount of things police do and giving those responsibilities to people better trained for it. Also getting rid of things like military equipment.

50% of black Americans agree that MORE police are needed on the street, according to a 2020 study. [1] To campaign for their reduction is to campaign against the interests of black people. In fact, it sounds incredibly racist to suggest black people can't decide this and their voice needs to be trampled upon. [1] https://www.vox.com/2020/6/17/21292046/black-people-abolish-...

can you show me where in my post I was talking about black americans or explain why its relevant to my post? Or even the parent post I responded to?

Re: In Mexico, cartels are hunting down police at their homes

#190

Post by 0xy »

splittingTimes wrote: post #177

Is there any example in recent history, where a failed state managed to turn around and improve/start functioning properly? And if yes, how did they do it?

If the US decriminalised cocaine and other illegal drugs you would immediately put the cartels in a stranglehold financially. Upon this, you can start going after their "legitimate" interests in legal businesses like resorts and manufacturing.

Just like the US prohibition emboldened the Mob, drug prohibition emboldens the cartels.

The Mob used to literally have shootouts with police in the street.

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