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Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

economist.com

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Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#181

Post by fy20 »

xaduha wrote: post #161
fy20 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Northern Europe and (slightly slower) parts of North America heat recovery ventilators are becoming standard on new buildings. In my country all new homes need to come with a unit that is at least 90% efficient. Retrofitting such systems isn't that hard, especially if you already have ducted AC. If you don't there are units that can ventilate a single room, they just need a 15cm hole in the wall. You mention home…

Not everyone lives suburban houses, some live in apartment buildings with central heating that you have little control over. It's a problem for people all around the world in different environments.

FYI my experience of these things is in an apartment building. Of course retrofitting old buildings is hard and landlords aren't incentivized to make changes which save energy (after all, the tenants are paying the bills), but new buildings can be built a lot smarter than what has been done previously.

The whole building technology topic is very interesting, as even today in many parts of the developed world (southern US seems to be a big offender here) they still build residential buildings the same as they were done 70+ years ago.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#182

Post by bluGill »

exabrial wrote: post #23

I suggested this as an alternative to mask enforcement months ago and was ridiculed on hacker news. I'm happy to see the idea come up again as it has a lot of solid science behind it.

February 2020 when I first heard this line it contradicted all the "experts" that I should be able to trust on a topic that as someone not trained in biology I need trust worthy experts. By now it has become clear that those experts were using their position of authority to say things that were not true instead of admitting they didn't know.

Once a few experts broke and started saying the truth that others still haven't really embraced changing science is a reflection on those experts that is morally criminal (probably not legally)

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#183

Post by bluGill »

Izkata wrote: post #176
timr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been a number of laboratory studies performed that show varying levels of effectiveness for different kinds of masks and materials (where "effectiveness" is defined in all sorts of different ways that may or may not be relevant). Prior to Covid-19, there was a low-quality evidence base that didn't provide much signal either way: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-... Strapping a ma…

It probably won't be as satisfying for you, but in the US mask-wearing got split along political lines. You can compare red areas (haven't worn masks for months to a year) to blue areas (were still mostly wearing them up to this month when the CDC guidelines changed). Overall, no noticeable effect.

There are confounders though that make such data not useful (I'm not sure how much statistics can find data in the noise or not though - but it won't be trivial). Red areas are in general more rural and spread out, while blue areas are denser population. Thus blue areas are naturally a different risk level. Also masks and political stance are not a perfect correlation. I personally know democrats who don't wears masks and republicans who do.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#184

Post by bluGill »

bootlooped wrote: post #80
kardos wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retrofitting the world's buildings for better ventilation all at the same time during a pandemic? Seems like a project measured in decades

I have almost never even seen a business' window or door propped open where it was normally closed before. I have never seen an air purifier in a public area of a business. If HVAC systems were modified or upgraded, I wouldn't have any way of knowing that, but I bet not many were. A lot of businesses won't do things for their patrons' safety unless they're forced to. Could you imagine what fire safety would be like i…

I find it strange governors didn't tell bar/srestaurants that if they had mitigation in place they could remain open. Lockdowns hurt those the most, and good ventilation/filtration would be cheap and easy. It would probably make enough of a difference as to be worth it.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#185

Post by bluGill »

Natsu wrote: post #171
actually_a_dog wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not practical in most parts of the country in the winter, when the virus was at its worst. What's the cost after including increased heating and A/C usage?

Your comment just made me wonder if that's part of why the viruses are always worst in winter. Sure, there are likely other factors, like vitamin D, but...

Seems unlikely. If you had made your comment in 1950 when the idea of air conditioning in summer was unheard of you would have a point. However these days any house or building has cooling in summer. People are outside a bit more in summer, but not enough to make a difference.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#186

Post by bluGill »

h0nd wrote: post #147

Does curbing SARS-CoV-2 delay the end of the pandemic?

Depends on how much you curb it. Just a little and it delays things. Do it enough and it will end sooner. Vaccines are the best way to do the latter, the US is close to the end and could be done with the pandemic if just a "few" million more got their vaccine.

Even the "just a little" delay is a good thing though. It gives doctors time to find better treatments.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#187

Post by bluGill »

floatingatoll wrote: post #122

No government I’m aware of has yet committing to fund renovation of every indoor business in their country. Nothing smaller than a government is prepared for the renovation cost of retrofitting every single business in the world for disease-preventing air exchange standards. If I were a small business owner, I wouldn’t want to simultaneously scare or anger customers, especially if there’s nothing I can do to afford m…

It isn't possible to upgrade every HVAC system in the country in one year. there are not enough HVAC people in any country to do it.

What is possible is a 30 year plan. Between new buildings getting the new codes, and remodeling for best practices we can get 75% of all buildings to updated HVAC over 30 years, and we have reason to believe that will make a big difference to colds and flus.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#188

Post by floatingatoll »

bluGill wrote: post #187
floatingatoll wrote: post #122

No government I’m aware of has yet committing to fund renovation of every indoor business in their country. Nothing smaller than a government is prepared for the renovation cost of retrofitting every single business in the world for disease-preventing air exchange standards. If I were a small business owner, I wouldn’t want to simultaneously scare or anger customers, especially if there’s nothing I can do to afford m…

It isn't possible to upgrade every HVAC system in the country in one year. there are not enough HVAC people in any country to do it. What is possible is a 30 year plan. Between new buildings getting the new codes, and remodeling for best practices we can get 75% of all buildings to updated HVAC over 30 years, and we have reason to believe that will make a big difference to colds and flus.

I no more support "in one year" than you do, so I'm glad we agree about that.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#189

Post by timr »

flor1s wrote: post #177
timr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A letter to an editor is not peer reviewed. It is a letter from a reader. Both of the papers I linked to are either peer reviewed, or a pre-print in the process of review.

> a pre-print in the process of review. So not reviewed yet. My point is that both a preprint and a letter to the editors have not gone through a rigorous review. Preprints might be submitted for peer-review but that's no guarantee that it will be published in a reputable venue.

Equating a pre-print with a letter because they have both not gone through a review is like equating a skateboard with a car because they both have wheels.

Yes, both are text, written in the english language, shown on a webpage. Beyond that, they share no similarities.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#190

Post by Natsu »

bluGill wrote: post #185
Natsu wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment just made me wonder if that's part of why the viruses are always worst in winter. Sure, there are likely other factors, like vitamin D, but...

Seems unlikely. If you had made your comment in 1950 when the idea of air conditioning in summer was unheard of you would have a point. However these days any house or building has cooling in summer. People are outside a bit more in summer, but not enough to make a difference.

I was thinking of the winter, actually, when people are more often indoors and not likely to leave doors or windows open.
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