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Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

economist.com

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Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#171
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. Open a window and stick a fan in it. Total cost: $20. Consider that during the pandemic, the good N95 masks were not even available for any price, so people were wearing flimsy cotton things that only block 20% of particulates. Opening a window with a fan works far better if you do it right and uses materials we still had in supply.

That's not practical in most parts of the country in the winter, when the virus was at its worst. What's the cost after including increased heating and A/C usage?

Your comment just made me wonder if that's part of why the viruses are always worst in winter. Sure, there are likely other factors, like vitamin D, but...

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#172
post #105
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for lack of trying however. Bear in mind the big tech companies all adopted an explicit policy of, "information that disagrees with the WHO is forbidden" and proceeded to ban lots of qualified commentators for trying to present non WHO approved information. They did this with the full approval and encouragement of the WHO itself. I'm slightly disturbed by the casualness of this thread actually. The WHO is not mer…

I read the narrative a bit differently than you: in the face of misinformation from an international health organization and friends, private society prevailed in figuring out WTF was actually going on, eventually, and WHO critics were able to get their message out. This is also one of the reasons I have argued vigorously against over-regulating tech companies and their moderation practices: they deserve the chance t…

For what it's worth, I agree with you w.r.t. tech firms. We can observe the unsatisfactory nature of their practices without concluding regulation is the answer.

As for the WHO, I wish I could simply ignore them as easily as I ignore what Facebook do. Facebook's power is limited to doing stuff on their platforms, more or less, and whoever they can influence via that. The WHO directly commands national governments who then command the rest of us. Dysfunction at that level filters down to the whole world.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#173
post #166
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WHO was pressured into saying not to ban flights from China. Made worse by the fact that China itself was nailing domestic flight from Wuhan to the pillars of shame for eternity. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/blogs/Whathappensif/how... > The WHO is supposed to urge member countries to keep their borders open as much as possible The WHO is supposed to care about health, not be the World Trade Organization.…

> The WHO was pressured into saying not to ban flights from China. Made worse by the fact that China itself was nailing domestic flight from Wuhan to the pillars of shame for eternity. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/blogs/Whathappensif/how ... Maybe research a bit more into WHO guideline on banning air travel from a particular country? The following link is from WHO statement on H1N1 back in 2009, stating: "The…

The WHO was put under tremendous pressure and suffered information-blackout by China. As a result of this blackout, not long-standing policy, the WHO suggested there was no proof of human to human transmission. As a result of this pressure the WHO re-iterated time and time again that banning flights from China would do nothing to curb the outbreak.

> a political posture at best

Even if it was encoded in policy (I will simply acede), it remains a policy based on politics and economic concerns, not a recommendation a scientist would ever give: an aerosolized h2h virus is out there, but it is has no effect to restrict travel from there.

It is weird to me that the opposition seems to be: banning flights is just playing politics. However, saying to not ban flights is science and based on sane protocol.

COVID was once in a 100 years. Not really apt to combat with political policies written in "peace time".

> No, "already Chinese tourists there" is never the reason behind their recommendation.

If the WHO is correct: China did extremely well with virus containment, and set a standard for the rest of the world. And Xi is correct: People fleeing from Wuhan are to be nailed on the pillars of shame for all of eternity. And you are correct: restricting travel is just political and does not nothing to help curb spread.

Then what is this inconsistent reality?

> No comment.

Then no links to ease your search for a truth.

> Interesting, why describe the situation like "a poor master of the house, unprepared to deal with a family"?

This pandemic showed that for maximum security for you and your loved ones, you have to rely on yourself and your own fact-finding. Health generals were telling you not to buy masks as these were not protective. Senators were saying that banning flights would be useless to help curb SARS (in response to Trump, not in response to fact-finding).

You listened, then you took your family to China Town without masks in early March 2020. You listened to the CDC, you were without toilet paper or medical supplies. You listened to China, and you would not prepare.

The officials first botched the response, heavily politicized it, then attacked the "misinformation pandemic" so your aunts facebook post on turmeric would be blocked for promoting false cures, and your uncles facebook post on the WIV would be blocked for racist conspiracy.

Or maybe you had an oxymeter, supplies of vitamins, masks, gloves, glasses, rubbing alcohol, vaporizer, routes to hospitals with occupancy, and 2 weeks of canned food. Maybe you informed your nearest ones, when doctors and virologists on TV were comparing COVID to heart attacks.

> You must be jesting, no?

A bit. I knew it would be perceived as a Trumpian: Just don't test, then we won't know, and what we won't know can't be a problem. But maybe you can re-read in the most favorable manner you can muster and take more from it than a joke: By the time we were bickering about tests, their availability, and effectiveness, there was already wide local community spread in the major cities. This stage demanded a different approach. Contact tracing resulting from a positive test would be a drop in a bucket. Test, say, 95%, and now you have exact numbers of something you already know in general to be true. Now what? Personalized quarantine efforts costing billions, while 5% goes on their merry way?

Italy dumped all their tests in a week to get an overview of their situation. Result: Formally, the problem got worse (they know the extend exactly), and a shortage of tests followed where doctors had to sail blind and just assume it was COVID for everyone with pneumonia.

> relevant and specific testing at the beginning of the pandemic was the biggest reason why data were hard to collect, why evidence of H2H transmission were delayed in confirmation, and why CFR, R+, and other stats were not correctly estimated.

It was a reason, I'll give you that. The biggest reason was China not being clear with information sharing. The WHO supporting that, because "now is not the time to point fingers", and countries either underestimating, or forced to overestimate (like the UK was forced to treat this very severely).

> more time enabled further study on the virus, and it's found to survive supply chains of frozen products.

No we already knew by then that coronavirus could survive on plastics for days. That active SARS was known to survive in sewage system for weeks, and demanded extra chlorination.

But there was more time to allow for a cover-up and produce an alternative story.

> You do realize that we are dealing with a new virus and scientist can make discovery about the new virus that could cause related policy to shift a 180.

No. It was extremely useful, and still is, to treat this virus as SARS-1. SARS-2 is unlikely to be constructively different, no matter if epistemic science takes years to validate a hypothesis.

Ask yourself why an initial policy was 180 different from a policy that would be sane for a precursor disease?

> Not sure what's your point? Again, travel restriction against a single country were not helping, nor going to help.

The point is that curbing travel from a country that is suffering an outbreak is effective against fighting that outbreak. Not 100%, but nobody is claiming that. There is water on the floor, you close the tap before you start mopping.

Banning travel from China helped, it would have helped a lot more if done earlier, and doing it the next time is going to help combat spread.

Asymptomatic spread is only a reason for travel bans (which target everyone from the epicenter, not just visibly ill people, who are "strongly advised" to not travel). Not a reason for throwing your hands in the air and going: Now it won't help at all!

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#174
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I just explained, the WHO's recommendations on travel restrictions are based on the International Health Regulations (2005). General recommendations! Not a playbook from 2005 you pull out for dealing with an upcoming pandemic! > the WHO is supposed to be concerned with the economy. It's not supposed to overreact and tank the world economy. It is also not supposed to underreact and tank the world economy. What wo…

> What would the world economy look like if China had reported their real numbers, and these real numbers had triggered a safety threshold and banned/heavily restricted travel from China for the 2 months December and January? In late January 2020, China: * Announced there was human-to-human transmission. * Completely sealed off Hubei province (population: 60 million). * Implemented lockdowns in cities throughout Chin…

> In late January 2020, China: Announced there was human-to-human transmission.

China announced it way too late.

https://apnews.com/article/united-nations-health-ap-top-news...

> Throughout January, the World Health Organization publicly praised China for what it called a speedy response to the new coronavirus. It repeatedly thanked the Chinese government for sharing the genetic map of the virus “immediately,” and said its work and commitment to transparency were “very impressive, and beyond words.”

> But behind the scenes, it was a much different story, one of significant delays by China and considerable frustration among WHO officials over not getting the information they needed to fight the spread of the deadly virus, The Associated Press has found.

To actually praise China for announcing human-to-human in late Januray 2020, while blaming most countries for doing next to nothing, is extremely ugly to me. I won't attack that (common) viewpoint, as it riles me up too much.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you comment on the feature they call 'vital-ion' with electro-chemical filtering? If it's an ionizer won't it be releasing Ozone into your filtered room? That sounds like the opposite of what you want for asthmatics, chidren, etc.

I don’t use it because I’ve heard it releases Ozone indeed. I don’t see the point. I have hard times trusting stuff made by others, so I’m just seeing 2 filters and a fan, that was just what I wanted ;)

Just for clarity you mean this feature is something you can separately enable/disable in the Coway Air filters?

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#176
post #69
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (and before anyone says it: yes, it's entirely possible to have conducted clinical trials of masks. a cluster randomized trial, for example, could have been used to establish efficacy early in the pandemic. That we didn't even consider doing these "because it's a pandemic" is one of the biggest scientific lost opportunities of our lifetime.) There were studies done; all the way back in March 2020 there was an infog…

There have been a number of laboratory studies performed that show varying levels of effectiveness for different kinds of masks and materials (where "effectiveness" is defined in all sorts of different ways that may or may not be relevant). Prior to Covid-19, there was a low-quality evidence base that didn't provide much signal either way: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/masking-lack-of-evidence-with-... Strapping a ma…

It probably won't be as satisfying for you, but in the US mask-wearing got split along political lines. You can compare red areas (haven't worn masks for months to a year) to blue areas (were still mostly wearing them up to this month when the CDC guidelines changed). Overall, no noticeable effect.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#177
post #121
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regions with an early interest in face masks had milder COVID-19 epidemics, according to a new letter-to-the-editor published in the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine. (the source of the Science Daily article: https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1164/rccm.202004-1188... ) I don't see how this is much less scientific than the non-peer-reviewed paper you posted.

A letter to an editor is not peer reviewed. It is a letter from a reader. Both of the papers I linked to are either peer reviewed, or a pre-print in the process of review.

> a pre-print in the process of review.

So not reviewed yet.

My point is that both a preprint and a letter to the editors have not gone through a rigorous review. Preprints might be submitted for peer-review but that's no guarantee that it will be published in a reputable venue.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#178
post #93
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The WHO is a UN agency that's probably even more politicized, but I don't know much about it. Tedros was hand picked by China. He was a communist during his time in Ethiopia. This was a big controversy years before covid. I was wondering why China would possibly care so much, I thought it was just them trying to increase their international clout however possible...

Any source to back up your claim. I read Wikipedia Tedros receive overwhelming majority of the votes. The problem is WHO is don't have enough power to do it's jobs. Based on below article. Even US and UK ignored WHO advice. https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/apr/10/world-health-or...

To be clear, I'm not really saying he has a hidden agenda or anything like that. It's just that it's clear why China would want more influence over the WHO, and why they'd like someone like Tedros or someone like him over someone from the West. Tedros is certainly qualified for the role. It's like a Democratic president appointing liberal judges. Of course they would.

He was absolutely a member of the TPLF though. He was in government in Ethiopia as a member.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#179
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would the world economy look like if China had reported their real numbers, and these real numbers had triggered a safety threshold and banned/heavily restricted travel from China for the 2 months December and January? In late January 2020, China: * Announced there was human-to-human transmission. * Completely sealed off Hubei province (population: 60 million). * Implemented lockdowns in cities throughout Chin…

> In late January 2020, China: Announced there was human-to-human transmission. China announced it way too late. https://apnews.com/article/united-nations-health-ap-top-news... > Throughout January, the World Health Organization publicly praised China for what it called a speedy response to the new coronavirus. It repeatedly thanked the Chinese government for sharing the genetic map of the virus “immediately,” and sa…

> China announced it way too late.

After China announced there was human-to-human transmission, European countries did almost nothing for another month. The US took even longer to take any serious actions. Do you really think things would have been different if China had announced human-to-human transmission 5-10 days earlier?

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#180
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In late January 2020, China: Announced there was human-to-human transmission. China announced it way too late. https://apnews.com/article/united-nations-health-ap-top-news... > Throughout January, the World Health Organization publicly praised China for what it called a speedy response to the new coronavirus. It repeatedly thanked the Chinese government for sharing the genetic map of the virus “immediately,” and sa…

> China announced it way too late. After China announced there was human-to-human transmission, European countries did almost nothing for another month. The US took even longer to take any serious actions. Do you really think things would have been different if China had announced human-to-human transmission 5-10 days earlier?

> After China announced there was human-to-human transmission, European countries did almost nothing for another month.

No, they started procuring masks and other PPE, but found that China had already conquered that market, before their announcement.

They could have told the US and European countries that the possibility of a modified virus lab-leak cannot be ruled out. Instead they started destroying samples, muzzle scientists, and had all their embassies push that WIV was a conspiracy theory, before any scientific investigation had even looked at it.

> The US took even longer to take any serious actions.

Yes. Was terrible to see. Can't even muster the mood to defend that.

> Do you really think things would have been different if China had announced human-to-human transmission 5-10 days earlier?

Yes. And a major moral difference. 5-50 days of valuable time. 5-50 more WHO meetings where Tedros says the window to act is getting smaller before Achilles will overtake the Tortoise.

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