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Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

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Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I’ll reiterate: I accept all of these premises! I’ve never denied them! All you and Eli have managed to do at this point is try to nitpick the linguistic deficiencies of my explanations, which are inevitable anyway since I’m not a physicist with a specialization in space-time theories. And whether I “get it” or not is secondary to the point of whether you have truly managed to confirm or disconfirm the time trave…

> Try dealing with something of consequence, like killing your former self (as in: the person in that point of time-space which carries the mutable signifier of “yourself” which is younger than yourself) or giving yourself a kilogram of gold from the future, which I think would violate the law of preservation of energy or whatever. You can make up impossible scenarios without time travel too. Like someone that shoots…

[deleted]

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to chart the future first, for even in moderately advanced countries you risk showing up during a riot or other agitations that could get you arrested and stranded, especially as our surveillance capabilities expand it will be hard to evade detection. And, if we assume we live in a one timeline hypothesis, all that work is still at risk from other time travelers altering a midpoint between now and where you…

Assuming I have enough gas in my time machine, I could just jump back. Eventually in this dream, it would be known , say Paris 2500 , is a cool spot . So people would travel there and spend money ( barter) . Would love to see this explored in a novel

ah yes that's an option too, I now realize I'm conditioned from what early comics I read in thinking that when one time travels the time machine stays where it is, but that has not to be necessarily the case

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#183
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still thinking of this as a chain of events unfolding, rather than as a playback of a set of immutable, self-consistent events. > The whole premise seems to be that this is allowed: No. That was not the premise. The premise was an immutable representation of self-consistent state transitions, so what occurs in step 2 will always have occurred at that point in time, because otherwise the system isn't immutable.…

And I’ll reiterate: I accept all of these premises! I’ve never denied them! All you and Eli have managed to do at this point is try to nitpick the linguistic deficiencies of my explanations, which are inevitable anyway since I’m not a physicist with a specialization in space-time theories. And whether I “get it” or not is secondary to the point of whether you have truly managed to confirm or disconfirm the time trave…

> Try dealing with something of consequence, like killing your former self (as in: the person in that point of time-space which carries the mutable signifier of “yourself” which is younger than yourself) or giving yourself a kilogram of gold from the future, which I think would violate the law of preservation of energy or whatever.

It is entirely irrelevant what it is. The point is that if the system is immutable it is impossible to represent a combination of state transitions that alters an existing state, as such the set of possible space-time combinations would in that case only include those where the time travel does not introduce a paradox that depends on change.

The same way the timeline does not include any states where I fold an elephant, because it's not possible to do so.

You have not presented any paradoxes that can work with an immutable space-time other than perhaps if said space-time introduces divergent timelines at any point of mutation, in which case the paradox can also easily be resolved.

> And yet if time travel backwards is possible you simply cannot deny that one would experience (!) that time travel as steps 1–3. Temporal experience. Hah!

You can experience it that way, but your "do something" step 2 would be deterministic and could not possibly include steps that introduced a paradox.

> There’s absolutely nothing hard about the concept of time being immutable;

You're still thinking in terms of a mutable space-time. I did not talk about time being immutable, but the entirety of space-time. Your "do something" step does nothing that changes anything in an immutable space-time, because everything is fixed from the start. Nothing moves. No action is taken. Everything is unalterable.

Time, and cause and effect, in that scenario is simply an illusion of consciousness at every point of a fixed 4d (or more) canvas that never changes in any way.

> The true puzzle is time travel which introduce paradoxes, which your original comment says absolutely nothing about.

My original comment gave immutability as an example of a possible solution. Time travel with paradoxes is not possible. That is the entire point of a paradox: The problem as stated reveals a problem with the presumed model. The solution is to identify and remove flaws in the model. Removing mutability is one such solution.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#184

I watch a lot of both American-made movies and TV shows as well as a lot of Japanese anime. One thing I find curious is how different the models for time travel usually are. In American media, it seems more often than not, time travel is modelled as if the past and the future are simultaneously existing parallel worlds, where the future is affected by the past in "real-time", e.g. Back to the Future's Marty gradually…

I think it depends on the show in anime. SPOILERS FOLLOW. Erased is not a parallel world, but someone trying to change their past. Madoka finds Homura repeatedly doing whatever is possible to save Madoka. Steins:Gate is timelines and parallel worlds (think of how many times Okabe again and again tries to save Mayuri). Girl who Leapt Through Time is the Groundhog Day story, same day over and again; bit like Tatami Gal…

It also depends on the show in American media. Star Trek, for example, has nearly every version of time travel at some point or another - except the "simultaneous worlds" version described in GP with Back to the Future and Timeless.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#185
I always imagined that time travel into the past would involve some statistical uncertainty. If you got close to creating a paradox, you'd simply transition back. Disappear essentially.

Make a nice story - ghosts are time travelers, appearing and disappearing without making any permanent changes.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#187
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I’ll reiterate: I accept all of these premises! I’ve never denied them! All you and Eli have managed to do at this point is try to nitpick the linguistic deficiencies of my explanations, which are inevitable anyway since I’m not a physicist with a specialization in space-time theories. And whether I “get it” or not is secondary to the point of whether you have truly managed to confirm or disconfirm the time trave…

> Try dealing with something of consequence, like killing your former self (as in: the person in that point of time-space which carries the mutable signifier of “yourself” which is younger than yourself) or giving yourself a kilogram of gold from the future, which I think would violate the law of preservation of energy or whatever. It is entirely irrelevant what it is . The point is that if the system is immutable it…

> It is entirely irrelevant what it is. The point is that if the system is immutable it is impossible to represent a combination of state transitions that alters an existing state,

Alters? Aha! But you cannot alter that which is immutable! Seems that you still don’t get the concept.

See how silly it is to language police people on such subjets?

> would in that case [only include those] where the time travel does not introduce a paradox that depends on change.

Highlighted the problematic part with brackets. This is just hand-waving. “Only those”? Your theory would have to be able to explain concrete examples like the grandfather problem, or else it doesn’t rise to the level of being a theory that can explain the paradox.

> The same way the timeline does not include any states where I fold an elephant, because it's not possible to do so.

Irrelevant unless there is an actual elephant folding paradox that I’m missing. Impossible things can be explained; paradoxes cannot since they reveal a contradiction in the model.

> You have not presented any paradoxes that can work with an immutable space-time other than perhaps if said space-time introduces divergent timelines at any point of mutation, in which case the paradox can also easily be resolved.

This is the first time (?) you’ve mentioned divergent timelines or hinted at non-just-straight-line-time. And yes, that would probably be perfectly adequate, and is the best answer you’ve given thus far.

> You can experience it that way, but your "do something" step 2 would be deterministic and could not possibly include steps that introduced a paradox.

“Determinism” is either irrelevant or non-sufficient. “Could not possibly” is pure hand-waving as there is nothing which makes sure that you are able to do something benign (like greet your former self) but not do something like kill yourself.

> You're still thinking in terms of a mutable space-time. I did not talk about time being immutable,

Wow, I have to hand it to you. I did mention “space-time” once (although only once) and I utterly failed to be rigorous and spell out the whole package deal, namely space-time. What an utter embarrassment.

Not that it changes my point in any way.

> My original comment gave immutability as an example of a possible solution. Time travel with paradoxes is not possible.

You can’t resolve the Barber Paradox by simply saying that the Universe wouldn’t allow the barber to shave himself. That’s effectively what you’re doing here, only using vaguely hard science terms with a seasoning of “you still don’t get it”.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#188
post #55

I've never seen the past or future. Only physical things still or moving, combining with other things or not ... What we call 'the past' is a mental picture of where physical things used to be positioned and their condition. But everything in 'that now' has changed. Just as when we 'travel' in physical space, when we get 'back home' it has changed. If I were to 'time travel' I'd be gone from now. But everyone else wo…

How do you reconcile this idea with special relativity?

The Earth is not the center of the universe. Similarly, time-travel seems to be an idea still stuck in the Newtonian idea of absolute time. As SR demonstrated: There is no such thing.

“Einstein said, ‘Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it,’”

https://phys.org/news/2011-04-scientists-spacetime-dimension...

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I’ll reiterate: I accept all of these premises! I’ve never denied them! All you and Eli have managed to do at this point is try to nitpick the linguistic deficiencies of my explanations, which are inevitable anyway since I’m not a physicist with a specialization in space-time theories. And whether I “get it” or not is secondary to the point of whether you have truly managed to confirm or disconfirm the time trave…

> Try dealing with something of consequence, like killing your former self (as in: the person in that point of time-space which carries the mutable signifier of “yourself” which is younger than yourself) or giving yourself a kilogram of gold from the future, which I think would violate the law of preservation of energy or whatever. You can make up impossible scenarios without time travel too. Like someone that shoots…

Shooting yourself and then later going out to lunch is simply impossible; it is not a paradox.

A paradox is when two contradictory things are true at the same time.

The grandfather problem is a paradox if time travel is possible. If it isn’t possible then it is simply an impossibility.

> And for largely the same reason: both scenarios violate causality, so the universe can't be shaped that way.

So you agree that time travel is impossible. Great... we agree. However I was discussing this with someone who apparently thinks that it is concievable... I wasn’t merely making up impossible scenarios; I was demonstrating how their theory gives rise to paradoxical scenarios.

Re: Paradox-free time travel is theoretically possible

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try dealing with something of consequence, like killing your former self (as in: the person in that point of time-space which carries the mutable signifier of “yourself” which is younger than yourself) or giving yourself a kilogram of gold from the future, which I think would violate the law of preservation of energy or whatever. You can make up impossible scenarios without time travel too. Like someone that shoots…

Shooting yourself and then later going out to lunch is simply impossible; it is not a paradox. A paradox is when two contradictory things are true at the same time. The grandfather problem is a paradox if time travel is possible. If it isn’t possible then it is simply an impossibility. > And for largely the same reason: both scenarios violate causality, so the universe can't be shaped that way. So you agree that time…

> A paradox is when two contradictory things are true at the same time.

> The grandfather problem is a paradox if time travel is possible. If it isn’t possible then it is simply an impossibility.

It's only a paradox if you're making certain assumptions about how time travel works.

You need to admit that these are assumptions.

Consider the airplane on a treadmill paradox. There is a hidden assumption that it's possible to accelerate the treadmill in isolation to match the wheel speed, but the logic fails because the speed of the treadmill is entwined with the speed of the wheels on the plane.

> So you agree that time travel is impossible. Great... we agree.

No, that's not what I said.

> I was demonstrating how their theory gives rise to paradoxical scenarios.

It doesn't.

You're assuming you can choose your actions independently from the time travel. The theory says that every choice is entwined with the fabric of the universe, so that by the time you see that an instance of time travel exists, the critical non-paradox-causing choices are already set in stone.

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