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This is Real, That's Not

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Re: This is Real, That's Not

#181

Post by biztos »

rurban wrote: post #143
timeeater wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany we have homeless people, and Romania wouldn't come to mind as a place where they don't. More likely I would expect people from Romania to be homeless in Germany. I think some homeless here are (possibly illegal) immigrants who don't have access to the same social security measures. But there are also homeless Germans, despite of safety nets existing in theory. I think it is often associated with menta…

I've worked for an organization helping homeless. We eg organized a worldwide soccer tournament https://homelessworldcup.org/ and are selling a news paper distributed by homeless people. Most homeless in western european countries come either from losing their job and having drug problems, or losing their wifes and thereby homes. The many eastern homeless cross the borders because they can live much better by begging…

What’s the point, from your point of view, of the homeless newspapers?

To me it’s always seemed like mostly a way to regulate begging, and also to let both parties pretend it isn’t begging. And in the best case maybe it’s therapeutic for people to write for them.

But it doesn’t seem like anyone reads these, and I wonder, are the other effects worth the cost / effort?

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#182

Post by orobinson »

pjc50 wrote: post #175
riffraff wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

And the UK. Although it's not a normal loan in that repayments are linked to income and there is a promise that it will be "forgiven" at retirement (which I'm a little skeptical of)

Not even retirement, 30 years after graduating. I do wonder how the government managed to sell so many of those loans on when I expect a small minority will ever end up getting fully repaid, given the high-ish interest and earning threshold for starting repayment.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#183

Post by tchaffee »

timeeater wrote: post #129
kstenerud wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived and worked in many different countries (including America and Germany), and there seem to be two main causes of homelessness: economic hardship and mental illness. In Germany, I've only seen homelessness due to mental illness, because the bureaucracy in the social programs causes too much friction for them to use it with decent success. There are organizations that help people navigate the mazes and paperw…

I think in places in San Francisco, it might not just be "inequality", but also homeless people flocking to places with spare money and mild climate. Why else would you choose to be homeless in one of the most expensive places on earth?

> choose to be homeless...

That's a poor choice of words that betrays your lack of knowledge on the subject. Instead of guesses about what is happening backed up with with "why else" reasoning, why not just do a little research on your own first? Or at least start with a question instead of a claim?

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#184

Post by nickthemagicman »

ggm wrote: post #105

Under the medically justified urgency of covid, Victoria took a significant number of homeless rough sleeping people (as they are called here in australia) into some kind of housing. Queensland did the same using surplus student purpose built dense housing. I'm not going to pretend this "solved the problems" but I am told a number of the less intractable cases got put into a better situation,simply having secure shel…

Well because rich people let it.

That's an important distinction.

The working class is in no position to take care of homeless ppl.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#185

Post by OkayPhysicist »

EarthLaunch wrote: post #36
DoreenMichele wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to that depends on what is wrong with the mental models of the individual in question. But I will suggest these two ideas as a rebuttal for some things I see as common errors in thinking: A college degree doesn't guarantee a real career with a good income and financial security. Being "good with money" can help a whole lot, but only if you first have some money. It fixes nothing if there is no money to wor…

> Being "good with money" [...] fixes nothing if there is no money to work with To expand upon that accurate point: Having little to no money can hone your money skills to a razor's edge, because staying on that edge is how you eat.

Money skills for survival and money skills for wealth accruement are completely and utterly different skill sets.

If you grow up with money and half decent parents, you learn the latter. Slowly, perhaps even imperceptively so: it probably starts young, opening a bank account, learning how to navigate the basics of the financial world. If you're middle class, you learn about investing and dealing with brokerage accounts. If you're rich, you learn how to deal with the people that handle that for you.

On the other hand, if you grow up without money, you don't learn those things. If your household is living paycheck to paycheck, you probably experience the basics of banking, but your exposure to the world of capital is greatly limited. If your family's struggling to put food on the table, then there's a solid chance you don't even get that. 22% of households in the US are unbanked. There's a reason why check-cashing services exist.

Beyond the simple knowledge gap, there's habits and thought-processes that get ingrained. It all culminates into a system that very effectively stifles class mobility.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#186

Post by headmelted »

pjc50 wrote: post #175
riffraff wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

And the UK. Although it's not a normal loan in that repayments are linked to income and there is a promise that it will be "forgiven" at retirement (which I'm a little skeptical of)

The UK loans are actually a good deal if you really understand them, which students here inevitably don’t. It makes demanding government to pay for tuition here pretty abhorrent imho.

I know a lot of working class/blue-collar families here, and talking with them, it really becomes clear how incredibly selfish and unreasonable it is to expect their taxes to buy someone wealthier than them an education that they themselves are denied by virtue of being raised in harsher circumstances.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#187

Post by timeeater »

tchaffee wrote: post #183
timeeater wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in places in San Francisco, it might not just be "inequality", but also homeless people flocking to places with spare money and mild climate. Why else would you choose to be homeless in one of the most expensive places on earth?

> choose to be homeless... That's a poor choice of words that betrays your lack of knowledge on the subject. Instead of guesses about what is happening backed up with with "why else" reasoning, why not just do a little research on your own first? Or at least start with a question instead of a claim?

I literally asked a question. And I meant choose San Francisco as the place to be homeless in, not choosing homelessness.

If you would apply the principle of charity, you would have been able to read my comment correctly.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#188

Post by emteycz »

bberrry wrote: post #173
riffraff wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while not the norm, there are places in Europe where student loans are relatively common, e.g. Norway[0] and Sweden[1]. Just mentioning because I was very surprised when I discovered it, and it offers an interesting alternative on how student loans could work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Norway [1] https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment...

There is literally no tuition in Sweden. The loans are for rent and general cost of living. You can have literally zero means and still go to university in another city.

False. It's subsidized to zero for citizens, but many schools are not free for foreigners either from EU or outside of it. Same in most EU countries.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#189

Post by timeeater »

cmrx64 wrote: post #162
timeeater wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in places in San Francisco, it might not just be "inequality", but also homeless people flocking to places with spare money and mild climate. Why else would you choose to be homeless in one of the most expensive places on earth?

https://www.kqed.org/news/11721460/why-do-these-4-myths-abou... this myth gets repeated and has no basis in reality. people in every city that offer any kind of service for the poor think that this attracts poor people. i guess it’s easier to believe that people are choosing to cheat society than society failed to provide for them

I said nothing about "choosing to cheat society". Perhaps check your own biases? I also didn't say anything about "offering services".

From the charts in your article it still doesn't seem unlikely that many homeless people migrated there for the jobs, a ka money - 30% in the "1 to 4 years" bracket, 48% if you go to "up to 9 years".

In my city (Berlin) it certainly seems to be the case that it is often immigrants who end up homeless, presumably because the social net for citizens doesn't fully apply to them.

Re: This is Real, That's Not

#190

Post by tchaffee »

timeeater wrote: post #187
tchaffee wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> choose to be homeless... That's a poor choice of words that betrays your lack of knowledge on the subject. Instead of guesses about what is happening backed up with with "why else" reasoning, why not just do a little research on your own first? Or at least start with a question instead of a claim?

I literally asked a question. And I meant choose San Francisco as the place to be homeless in, not choosing homelessness. If you would apply the principle of charity, you would have been able to read my comment correctly.

Here is your claim:

> homeless people flock to places with spare money and mild climate.

Here is what it would look like as a question:

Do homeless people move to places with spare money and mild climate?

The "why else" construction is not a literal question. It's rhetoric device used to make a claim about reasoning. It implies that you've thought through all the possible reasons and you've come up with the obvious answer.

But if you were really making a sincere question, the answer to "why else" is: that is where they lived when they became homeless.

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