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“I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

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Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#181

Post by lambda_obrien »

voodootrucker wrote: post #169
lambda_obrien wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and also don't get it: I barely write real code in my day job as the only coder on a project I own. I mostly go in, make notes on what looks bad, then fix it later, but the majority of the work isn't writing code and sometimes even I have to look up the proper `case` statement syntax or something. I can imagine being nervous, going in to do FizzBuzz, and bombing it, even as someone who has coded since I was 1…

I was a teacher for a laughably short time, and I think what you are talking about would be called an "authentic performance task". Also, I think what interviewers are attempting is called "assessment", and I can say these tests are the absolute laziest version of it. Genuine assessment is very hard. I worked at a leading bootcamp you would know the name of and was asked by $BIGCO to create a one dimensional assessme…

I am not expert enough to weigh in heavily on what's the best way to do that, but I feel like "software engineer" is just a title to make us feel great while we assemble our components much like the workers on an auto manufacturing line, but with a tiny bit more education and day-to-day work differences. However, with all the low-code and other tools which make it easier to write software and deploy it (crappy software, but "it works") soon we'll see "software engineers" turn into "software assemblers" or something like that. Sure, there will be a handful of programmers who will need to code those tools, or specialize in algorithms or writing code on constrained environments (embedded), but those will be the surgeons who make all the money, and the rest of us are the closers (whatever they call the surgeons who just sew things shut and finish up the procedure).

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#182

Post by voodootrucker »

Swizec wrote: post #161
jariel wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 on 'Code Archeology'. I wonder if interviews should consist more of reading a pile of open source and just trying to make sense of it. There's some crusty open source I've had to deal with whereupon it took quite some intelligence just to get it to compile and work - absolutely nothing to do with 'algorithms'. I'm half inclined to just say: "Here's a git repo, build it, modify this thing to do that" and if they ca…

We do this! For the coding portion, candidates get a crappy React app we slapped together in 20 minutes. They’re asked to add a feature. Really tells you a lot about the candidate.

Authentic.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#183

Post by py_or_dy »

echelon wrote: post #55
decafninja wrote: post #12

Unless you've made it to your "endgame" company that you're happy to stay at for a while, I feel investing anything more than the bare minimum to get your assigned work done is worth less than just grinding leetcode and otherwise studying for interviews. Doing an actual good job, above and beyond, is not going to be worth much when you're looking for your next job. Thus we're now seeing the rise of Professional Inter…

Our industry feels like it's in the decline of the Roman Empire right now. Our craft is becoming arcane: Microsoft is building VSCode for the cloud. Few people own desktop computers anymore. Apple is locking down MacOS to signed binaries. Soon we'll all have thin clients and will write software in the cloud for the cloud. Few will be able to learn how to engineer at home anymore - you'll have to go to a university or…

Goodness, you and the OP have really hit the nail on the head.

I spent the last 5 years quite happy at a simple dev shop. Then they hired a bunch of people, paid them more than me, and allowed them complete free reign to write what ever kind of code on some brand new projects. After a year of this, one person quit mid-project, another died mysteriously (covid?), and then another just recently quit. My boss expected me to just pick up the slack on these three projects that were written in the most arcane and buffoon way possible. I basically just said no, and left. I had already been driven half insane over the year just trying to figure out the crap they were committing.

This was in the spring and I'm still unemployed. I'm mostly Java and some older languages, and was really looking forward to jumping onto python and django. But it's been a struggle really learning django good enough to interview for without any good experience behind me. I have a family and on top of covid issues and this year in general, sitting at home trying to learn a giant web framework is not very motivating when I could be spending it with my family (which were already severely affected by all my time I "wasted" going above and beyond at my last job for 5 years).

I just recently did an interview for a small django shop that didn't even test on django. Instead, I was given a half page of python code and asked to "fix" the problems. No requirements or tips. There was a syntax error, a bug, and a few cosmetic things.. I managed to find 8. All this while being stared at over Zoom. I was informed that "junior" devs can find 10-12 "problems", but they only hire those that "find" more than 18 (apparently 25 is the max).

I still got the code and look at it every now and then. Half a page of code that does nothing but take a list of "item" objects and print out an aggregate of a total price by item type. A loop over nothing but:

  total[item.type] += item.cost
Of course there was some random data mangling above and below that, but that is the logic. Find the problems?! Should I raise errors or use a namedtuple or defaultdict? Half a page of code that could have just been a Select/Group by in SQL. No senor dev should be summing data like that. Sadly they said the code was from "production". They have "interviewed" over a hundred people in this year and hired only 1. All this for $45/hr 1099.

In the beginning, I briefly thought I could use my savings to start some kind of business, not sure what. But I've blown most of that just paying the bills while I "interview".

I used to love software and would dream and breath it. But I've never been so unmotivated over these last 6 months. I'm debating on just applying at a local small town municipal IT job for $30 an hour. Giving up basically. Just show up at 8am, answer the phone mindlessly for IT "problems" and tell people to try restarting their windows machine (at least 3 times minimum) and screw of playing solitaire the rest of the day. But it seems so pointless and waste of a life. But even that doesn't motivate me, but just makes me more depressed and even slower going.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#184

Post by wolco2 »

decafninja wrote: post #140
kmonsen wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so at all. I have worked hard, and had a lot of fun at now two of the FAANG's. Sure the reward has not been like winning the startup lottery, but if you told myself 20 years ago I would have this impact and earn this much money I would not have believed it. I totally suck at politics, and have seen others rise quicker, but doing good work does get rewarded in my experience.

I would think FAANG would be considered as "endgame company" for many. Including myself.

Back in the day you wanted in to get shares before they went public. Then the dream was to cashout and using your google money you can create something. Then people stopped getting stocks but used it to get funding. Then there are the people who get in any position for less than 2 years and use that expereince to get a CTO job at a smaller org.

Why do you consider it your endgame? Top salary? Interesting problems? Making a difference?

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#185

Post by millstone »

landtuna wrote: post #107
millstone wrote: post #57

The author has been working as a developer for 15 years, and claims very strong technical skills. Why are they learning/re-learning Python, C++, SQL, C#, college math? Nobody will be fooled by that; at 15 YoE they will be evaluated on what they have done over a career, not over the last month. > it's all about how much time you can spend on Leetcode. The author is playing a game built for new grads. Here's a secret,…

That's nonsense. I've got 20 YoE, an elite college degree, tons of experience in Python and C++, have single-handedly put together mission critical software systems, and I can't get my foot in the door outside my small area of expertise. The teams I've worked on are tiny, so I have no career network to draw from. I'm missing machine learning and cloud experience, and my resume gets no hits because of it. Age 44, and…

That sounds damn frustrating. Would you be willing to share your area of expertise?

At 17 YoE, I avoid the cloud and ML because it's hard to bring my skills and experience to bear, and also I have no passion for them. But I have also found there's a ton of C++ code out there; IME there's a lot of appetite for someone who can wrangle it.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#186

Post by voodootrucker »

Apreche wrote: post #119

I refuse to take any such tests, and I've had no trouble finding employment. In a world where recruiters are blowing up your inbox, the ball is in your court. One time I interviewed somewhere. It wasn't a perfect job, but I would have taken it if the offer was good. After the interview they called and wanted me to take some kind of test. I said no. They called me at least two more times to see if I wouldn't reconside…

Amen. Working there would be exactly the same. Hamstrung by process.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#187

Post by colmvp »

prh8 wrote: post #53

I was just griping about this earlier today. I'm in the interview process with a company, who has talked to me before, after being referred internally to do so. I've talked to them about technical problems I've solved in the past, discussed problem solving and approaches to optimization and architecture. Interview process has gone really well. They said the last thing is a code test, that they do through Hackerrank.…

> Anyways, time to go bomb out of another candidacy at the last stage.

This made me chuckle. For what its worth, I've bombed out multiple times in the past month. You're not alone.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#188

Post by the_only_law »

This is why I’ll never make any significant money. Can’t motivate myself to learn stuff that seems to abstract too far away from allowing me to work in the things that interest me.

Same issue with math, it would do me so much good to go back and released math, but I just can’t bring myself to do it because I’ll have to start too far away from any useful application and, even though it’s important.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#189

Post by landtuna »

millstone wrote: post #185
landtuna wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nonsense. I've got 20 YoE, an elite college degree, tons of experience in Python and C++, have single-handedly put together mission critical software systems, and I can't get my foot in the door outside my small area of expertise. The teams I've worked on are tiny, so I have no career network to draw from. I'm missing machine learning and cloud experience, and my resume gets no hits because of it. Age 44, and…

That sounds damn frustrating. Would you be willing to share your area of expertise? At 17 YoE, I avoid the cloud and ML because it's hard to bring my skills and experience to bear, and also I have no passion for them. But I have also found there's a ton of C++ code out there; IME there's a lot of appetite for someone who can wrangle it.

Well, the technologies I've used are all over the place, but the niche is defense contracting. Until now, I don't think I realized that processing lots of data really fast locally (i.e., not in the cloud) wasn't more generally in-demand.

Re: “I've had to relearn coding to get through the new interviews”

#190

Post by millstone »

tomcat27 wrote: post #98
millstone wrote: post #57

The author has been working as a developer for 15 years, and claims very strong technical skills. Why are they learning/re-learning Python, C++, SQL, C#, college math? Nobody will be fooled by that; at 15 YoE they will be evaluated on what they have done over a career, not over the last month. > it's all about how much time you can spend on Leetcode. The author is playing a game built for new grads. Here's a secret,…

what's the ratio of software engineers to senior software engineers at Facebook? Gestimate.

Maybe 15 to 1.
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