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Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

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Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#181

Post by imtringued »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #8
ashtonkem wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. It also seems like Belarus is killing the goose that laid the golden egg here, not that that’s surprising behavior from an authoritarian regime fighting for its life.

> It also seems like Belarus is killing the goose that laid the golden egg here If some kind of deeper integration with Russia is on the horizon, as many have expected for years, then this might hardly matter. The overall Russian economy is so based on the export of natural resources, that the ruling stratum is hardly worried about other industries like the IT sector. All those Russians except for the ~10 million nee…

>The overall Russian economy is so based on the export of natural resources, that the ruling stratum is hardly worried about other industries like the IT sector.

This is a tautology and the reason why many corrupt regimes suffer from the resource curse. The government blesses a few industries as the cash cow and keeps them under state control to finance the authoritarian regime. Other growing industries are seen to be disrupting the status quo and thereby undermine state control. Authoritarian governments would rather own 90% of a pile of crap than 30% of something valuable. Then those countries fall into poverty because the statesmen are billionaires no matter how they treat their people.

Hyperbole: Imagine a parallel world where Donald Trump had a "dayjob" where he earns enough money to pay for the military of the US on his own and can buy military equipment from other countries. He could easily suppress American citizens without any consequences. Losing votes doesn't matter because the military is on his side. Destroying or preventing civilian infrastructure doesn't impact military funding. One thing is certain. This would not be a world of prosperity.

Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#182

Post by xyzzyz »

bonoboTP wrote: post #141
xyzzyz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprisingly enough, tech salaries are not that much higher in Germany than they are in Poland. In Germany, the tech wages are surprisingly low, and when you couple that with higher taxes and high cost of living, it is not as attractive as US or Switzerland. In more concrete terms: 60-70k EUR is what you are looking at in Germany in good job markets, while in Poland the figure is 30-40k EUR. When you consider taxes,…

Life is pretty cheap in Germany if you live a simple life. Supermarkets are famously cheap. Clothes, electronics cost the same as anywhere else. Rent is bearable outside of big cities and jobs are quite well distributed across Germany. The big difference is in the savings. Even if you just make twice as much, your savings per month can be several times higher than in Poland, which makes a lot of difference if you wan…

Outside of big cities, you're looking at <50k EUR gross. Granted, software wages outside big cities in Poland are significantly worse, but you can live pretty grand life in Warsaw for the same amount as simple life in Germany, while saving more.

Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#183

Post by ashtonkem »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #117
varjag wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is an IT midget, comparatively. And with ever increasing sanctions regime it's going to remain backwaters for the near future.

Which is a shame, because I remember there were a LOT of highly talented individuals in Russian academia right when the Soviet Union dissolved - owing to the SU's strong showing in mathematics research.

I believe that is exactly why companies like EPAM exist, to contract out the engineers left idle after the collapse of the USSR.

Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#184

Post by xyzzyz »

dukeme09 wrote: post #167
xyzzyz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprisingly enough, tech salaries are not that much higher in Germany than they are in Poland. In Germany, the tech wages are surprisingly low, and when you couple that with higher taxes and high cost of living, it is not as attractive as US or Switzerland. In more concrete terms: 60-70k EUR is what you are looking at in Germany in good job markets, while in Poland the figure is 30-40k EUR. When you consider taxes,…

It's possible to earn far more than 60-70k a year in Germany as a SWE. In my city, Munich, total cash compensation packages range from 85-110k Euros per year for 5-10 years of experience. The base salary trends to on the lower end, but there can be significant bonuses (company bonus, August vacation bonus, and Christmas bonus. For example st BMW, each of these are typically a month's extra salary). In addition, if yo…

And it's possible to earn far more than 40k EUR a year in Poland as well. Google Warsaw starts at 45k EUR for new grads, and you're looking at 80k EUR for senior software engineers. There are a few high pitching companies that try to match that. I was rather pointing out the typical case that covers most of the workers.

Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#185

Post by nomadrat »

ozim wrote: post #23
nomadrat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's naive to say that there's no borders. You have to be qualified for the visa requirements. You also have to renew this visa every year or so. You have to start all over. Of course everything is possible with some effort and money, but i'm tired of seeing this term "no borders for it engineers".

Agree, it is no borders for "digital nomads" from first world countries having nice passports. Take into account COVID-19 pandemic and it is not as easy to move somewhere just now.

yeah i'm from Belarus, so i know everything about borders and also pandemic-related visiting troubles. currently in Vilnius on almost expired residence permit

Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#186

Post by krageon »

blub wrote: post #164
ornornor wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then go to Switzerland. If you find a job and have EEU citizenship (not sure about residence permit), getting a permit to stay is just a form and less than 100.-. you can’t find a better place in the EEU for salaries imho. In a small town, your expenses are rather low and these jobs pay 80–120k CHF with taxes around 15–30% depending on the kanton.

Switzerland's famously cold towards foreigners. I'm not judging that either way, just mentioning it because I think it's a relevant detail.

Famous where? Perhaps the country of origin of these rumors can shed some light about where the cold reception comes from.

Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#187

Post by krageon »

severino wrote: post #107
crispyporkbites wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most likely they will want to stay close to Belarus, as most will have family that remains and be hopeful that their country improves in the future.

> be hopeful that their country improves in the future Yes, but things can go into the other direction too, if for example the EU takes over and their good old country turns into another failed state ala Ukraine...

Even reading this charitably this reads like you need serious help re-discovering the world and what's going on in it.

Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#188

Post by krageon »

severino wrote: post #172
Nginx487 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In any internet topic covering Ukraine or Belarus, you can find at least one toxic Russian actively hating its Western neighbors.

Only that they don't have to be Russian. One can be a westerner and still be able to think by itself. PS: sometimes I'm a Chinese too.

Perhaps we can strip the nationalistic posturing and just say it is toxic then.

Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#189

Post by krageon »

Twixes wrote: post #129
ArkVark wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland is not a great place to live either. Sales tax is 23%, stores are all shut on Sunday (by decree of the Polish Catholic church, essentially), real estate prices are similar to the midwest USA due to restrictions on new builds, and taxes on labor and small business are high and complicated. The language itself uses a bastardized version of the Latin alphabet which is inferior to Cyrillic, and general pronunciati…

Poland definitely could be a lot better, but these are some odd points. VAT is higher than in Germany, but lower than in Sweden. Nothing that gets anyone going really. Real estate is quite cheap (dollar to dollar, not exactly for Poles) for a European country, though Warsaw does stand out as the capital. There isn't anything "bastardized" or "inferior" about either the Polish or Belarusian alphabet, or really any alp…

While you've addressed things in a way that I think is fair, to me the most important points are about air pollution and atmosphere. Are they wrong about those as well?

Re: Tech workers flee Belarus as IT haven takes authoritarian turn

#190

Post by varjag »

ashtonkem wrote: post #183
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a shame, because I remember there were a LOT of highly talented individuals in Russian academia right when the Soviet Union dissolved - owing to the SU's strong showing in mathematics research.

I believe that is exactly why companies like EPAM exist, to contract out the engineers left idle after the collapse of the USSR.

There's more or less noone working at EPAM in developer capacity who was an engineer before collapse of USSR, and it's been the case for a couple decades.
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