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New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

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Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#181
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The surveillance, including the mass surveillance of the communication, existed even in older times. It is, for example, documented that both British and US secret services went through all the telegrams that passed their commercial infrastructure, often based on a simple "gentleman's agreement" with the companies, even in the 19th century, and certainly in the 20th. Other countries were somehow aware of that weaknes…

Back in the age of feudalism the holy roman emperor, who was neither holy, nor roman, nor an emperor, but the head of the House of Habsburg, gave the monopoly of postal services as an hereditary title to the House of Thurn und Taxis who had been building their postal services for two centuries, eliminating their competition in the empire, under the rule that letters are read and checked for conspiracy against the cro…

> who was neither holy, nor roman, nor an emperor

It's a trope that "sounds good" but IMHO doesn't get one more knowledge.

a) It was de facto an empire, but with an emperor allowing huge independence to the local rulers. So he was an emperor, even if he couldn't do "anything anytime".

"The power of the emperor was limited, and while the various princes, lords, bishops, and cities of the empire were vassals who owed the emperor their allegiance, they also possessed an extent of privileges that gave them de facto independence within their territories. " (1)

b) It was "holy" in the sense of "Christian" and in the sense of getting weaker due to the "holy wars" raging even between the parts of the empire.

c) the "roman" could be the most disputed, but it reflects the millenniums-long belief of what the "real" empire is supposed to be, namely, the one that is the successor of the rulers by which we name two months in a year even today.

The trope's origin is Voltaire. His influence on the beliefs of the western world must be acknowledged, but it must be recognized that he wrote a lot with the intention of changing them (and some changes were even bigger than he accepted).

As I write this I still haven't read https://doi.org/10.7245/0026-2005-42.1.60 but I'd expect that it worth a read for those interested in more details:

"For the historian, Voltaire's famous quip has three aspects: 1) What did Voltaire mean by it in 1756 when he wrote the line in his Essay on Customs? 2) How did contemporaries, including the Austrian Habsburgs, understand it? 3) Does the quote accurately describe the events the Philosophe is discussing (Charles IV of Bohemia and the Golden Bull of 1356)? Voltaire in fact exaggerates the weakness of the Empire in both 1356 and 1756, and uses an anachronistic standard to evaluate both: the quasi nation states of the 1750s. The three parts of the imperial title had changed in meaning during the four centuries after 1356. The jibe nonetheless reflects something of the thought of Voltaire and the French Enlightenment."

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#182
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, the OP was talking about the perception of Germany today and I think we can safely assume that no Ex-Nazi personnel is currently working at the German secret service. And coming to think of it, why wouldn't someone whose qualified to spy on others be rehired to do the same job in Germany after the end of GDR? What do you think secret services do? Regarding "environmentally friendly", this point is correct…

> Hilarious and schizoid are adjectives that I would assign to your post. Sorry but you are rude. > I think we can safely assume that no Ex-Nazi personnel is currently working at the German secret service Stasi personel though? Are you expecting that people using such nuanced and subtle techniques like Zersetzung against domestic population [1] will suddently become ethical towards anyone they perceive as threat? or…

> Sorry but you are rude.

Yes, you are right. I apologize, I clearly went overboard.

> Stasi personel though? [...]

I think it's just an over-generalization. Just because you worked for the Stasi automatically makes you a bad fit for a certain job. It really depends.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#183
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love making analogies. I even compared apples to oranges and it worked! Humour aside, analogies are really important and I have never understood the disparagement of comparing one group or situation to another. Analogising is a tool to help understand one other and promote diversity.

analogies are great, but there's just literally nothing that corresponds to vitamin c on the internet. the analogy just goes into completely unchartered waters and crashes against the rocks when it pretends that it is a life or death matter. the internet can't stop you getting scurvy - in fact, since it's effective at reducing exercise, it seems to run in the opposite direction from the truth and it's just alarmist n…

I don't understand your analogy of uncharted waters and crashing against rocks.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google, Mozilla, et al. should make a commitment to revoke the trust of any CA that is found to partake in behavior like that. Even retroactive revocation of existing certificates shouldn't be off the table if the offense is egregious enough. It's actually pretty scary seeing just how many CAs are in the list of trusted CAs on any given device. While no government is beyond reproach, I do wish there were a way for me…

Browsers blacklisted Kazakhstan government certificate used for MITM which was not even trusted. It is absurd to expect anything less than blacklisting such a CA immediately. Certificate transparency is required for all certificates since April, 2018, so you can't really issue rogue certificate.

Does the browser check?

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#185

To not even be sure whether a website you visit, or a file you download is actually what its creator says it is, is like picking up an orange but the government secretly replaces it with an apple that contains almost no vitamin C in it at all. You have the right to seek out and eat an orange for your immune system and survival, and no government should have the right to interfere with that, at any time. This law is a…

> Whoever proposed it should be ashamed of themselves Name and shame: Interior Minister Horst Seehofer of the conservative-authoritarian CSU. He and his party friends are who want this. We have the chance to kick them out of office in 2021, it's time for the stranglehold of Conservative internet-printers (Internetausdrucker, a German word for tech illiterates) as Interior Ministers to end once and for all .

> Conservative internet-printers

By association Otto Schily wasn't a conservative and yet...

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#186

You would think that the country, after recovering from both naziism, and also a chilling communist rule in the east, would worry more about the surveillance state growing. What is German public sentiment about that sort of thing? Does anybody know?

The current law is not yet big in the media. I am not sure if there will be a big discussion. If public media decides to push this topic, there will be resistance. I doubt that the average German will notice that this law was passed, if there is a lack of big media covering this topic.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love making analogies. I even compared apples to oranges and it worked! Humour aside, analogies are really important and I have never understood the disparagement of comparing one group or situation to another. Analogising is a tool to help understand one other and promote diversity.

The analogies help break it down for less technically oriented people so that they can get behind the cause as well.

I believe that compassionate educational material - which would allow for diverse pedagogical 'ladders' or 'on-ramps' for people on different skill levels - on the core systemic issues/challenges we are currently facing, is a much better strategy than flimsy and inaccurate analogies.

I think there is a common false belief that only technical people can understand some concepts. I believe it’s more the case that as a society we often don’t have good pedagogical tools available to us in the public domain to help people become the critical thinkers our democratic society needs them to be.

I say this with the hope for a shift towards social production/Commons-based peer production, and a re-imagining of the (currently) rentier and extractive business models on digital assets, which make no sense anymore in a digital society where information is light.

Design global, make local.

Favorite authors on this: Aaron Swartz('s manifesto), Kevin Carson and Yochai Benkler.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#188
post #48

What does "trojans at ISPs" even mean? TLS works end-to-end and ISPs can do absolutely nothing to see the plaintext. It's unless the CAs at users-side are manually replaced with fake ones nothing can be done. I've never used Windows since I was a kid but I am sure this is pretty much impossible on Linux for example since adding CAs require root privilege.

Presumably, Germany would have little trouble compelling at least one root CA to sign any TLS certificates they wanted. Just a cursory search shows that Google Chrome, on Linux, trusts, e.g. > CN = D-TRUST Root CA 3 2013 > O = D-Trust GmbH > C = DE There is certificate transparency and pinning and so on, and they would be caught (probably, maybe) if they abused this carelessly and at scale, but in practice, for a sma…

Thanks for this very insightful comment. I'm sure that wasn't obvious to many. It certainly wasn't to me.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#189

Pretty shocking in a state that has such strict privacy laws. Not sure how the two can come from the same mouth, and even be in public view. My understanding is that the privacy restrictions are largely the result of half the country having lived under the Statsi, and thus being extremely weary of government eyes. Here it’s out in the open!

There is something hilarious and schizoid in how Germany is perceived and the realities about this country. They have strict privacy laws? First Nazi personel in the first half then Stasi personel in the second half of the 20th century were simply requalified and rehired, each bloody time. How do you think? They are top environmentally-friendly country? Highest polluting coal power plants in EU are located in Germany…

Nazis were indeed rehired to senior positions, but sensitive parts of the civil service were purged of Stasi operatives, although this did take a long time, especially in Saxony. There has been some resentment of the fact that this often meant that the civil service in Eastern states is dominated by 'Wessies'.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3j90ua/what_...

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