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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#181

Post by munificent »

dan-robertson wrote: post #126
lazyeye wrote: post #12

Does anyone else find this a little ironic given Google is a company that has been logging peoples location to a very fine detail for years

I have four arguments as to why google are behaving this way with regards to this data. I’ve no idea which, if any, they operate by: 1. It’s actually crap and they don’t want their advertisers to know that their ads are sold based on crap quality data/don’t want the backlash of doing a poor job helping 2. Most people at google care a lot about privacy (either in the secret kept between you and google sense or the mor…

I work at Google but don't have any visibility into this project, nor do I speak for Google on this. My uninformed guess is that the answer is more precisely:

5. They very much want this project to succeed so that it can save lives. They know privacy concerns are (rightly) an existential threat to the success of the project, so they are trying to address those by drawing this firm line.

It's not 1 or 3 because anyone can look at the location data Google gathers on them and judge for themselves if it's crap. Just search for "view google location history" and it will take you right there.

I think 2 is pretty close to the mark. Despite HN's understandably cynical take, everyone I talk to at Google cares a lot about user privacy.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#182

Post by ehsankia »

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #127
karambir wrote: post #9

Will be interesting to see if they can ban Indian govt. app[1] which needs full location access(clarified)[3]. A lot of people like this app(including me) but also know government does not have good track record in securing private data. Previously Apple were made to bend their rules when India threatened to ban Apple devices if they don't allow TRAI Do Not Disturb app in 2018.[2] [1] https://play.google.com/store/ap…

The location permission is required to scan for bluetooth devices because it can be used to work out location.

Well not if once you use the new API specifically made for contact tracing, right? Since the bluetooth scanning will be done by a lower level system run by play services, the app itself doesn't need the permissions.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#183

Post by aaron695 »

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #114
aaron695 wrote: post #92

Can anyone show me an app in the wild that uses Bluetooth like or close to what the Covid apps wants to? Why isn't HN talking about the technical side at all? We know Bluetooth on phones can't do what the governments says it can. We've all gone through the stage of, what if we used Bluetooth to track people indoors and do cool stuff! Then we realise you can't. The best we see is advertising maybe doing low quality be…

The Australian one seems to follow the spec pretty will. Uses rolling random IDs and BT RSSI to check for proximity to infected people. “Infected” is declared by the patients getting the hospital to input a private key when they’re diagnosed, which then uploads their last x days of random IDs to declare them as infected. Source code is public and has been shared/audited on twitter etc but no formal audits that I’ve s…

I've decompiled the app for android and had a look over the source and what you say isn't true.

The rolling ID doesn't work so 3rd parties can track you.

Source code has not been released at all.

It does not work in iOS I think is a fair statement. It won't until Apple do the update.

It does not check the 'proximity to infected people'.

All data processing is done by a human. The app just dumps all your info. All interactions with other phones with the app to a human. Then then work out times and if the person was 'close'

So this is why I've asked the question.

Surely someone on HN has made an android/iOS app and can comment. It would have to be around a phone Bluetoothing to a phone.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#184

Post by g_p »

AJRF wrote: post #3

I've been wondering about the UK contact tracing app because they seem to be deliberately misleading saying that data is secure on the phone, yet it's a centralised model, and they are using bullshit terms like "clinically secure algorithm" to describe the one-time codes; Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested from NHSx seeing as it is publicly funded by the tax payer? Also they've alr…

It looks like you won't have to petition for it. According to https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/files/NHS-app-security-paper%20V0.1....,

"We intend to open source our codebase once the first release is finalised. The documentation accompanying that release will supersede this paper."

and from https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/security-behind-nhs-contac...,

"The Secretary of State has also committed to making the source code open source. That may not happen immediately on release because the fabulous NHSX development team are all working hard on getting the product ready. But it will happen."

Sounds like there is an intention to deliver on the source. Bigger question is whether the server side is open sourced (as clearly that has limited value for verifying what is happening remotely).

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#185

Post by mrfusion »

AlexMoffat wrote: post #179
mrfusion wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple wanted to they could force your phone to install an Unremovable app or just add in the software in an update.

This is not just a straw man it's a straw giant.

True. I just haven’t been following this. I’m glad to hear it’s completely voluntary.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#186

Post by macinjosh »

sjwright wrote: post #170
alkibiades wrote: post #117

even without location tracking it’s creepy. what happens when the govt contact traces a man with his mistress and then blackmails him?

I laugh at conspiracy theories which revolve around the Government paying special attention to normal individuals. Dude, Governments have the power to tax millions of people. They don’t need your piddling bribery money. It’s too much work for too little reward.

It’s not about the money and it’s not about “normal individuals”, whatever that means.

Law enforcement and intelligence agencies find this sort of information useful to further their agendas.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#188

Post by sjwright »

macinjosh wrote: post #186
sjwright wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I laugh at conspiracy theories which revolve around the Government paying special attention to normal individuals. Dude, Governments have the power to tax millions of people. They don’t need your piddling bribery money. It’s too much work for too little reward.

It’s not about the money and it’s not about “normal individuals”, whatever that means. Law enforcement and intelligence agencies find this sort of information useful to further their agendas.

Then (in your absurd hypothetical scenario) those agencies are being incredibly stupid, they're wasting their time on on high risk / low reward strategies.

Oh wait, you're probably talking about the United States? It's scary how fucked up that place is just millimetres below the surface.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#189

Post by three_seagrass »

jimmaswell wrote: post #155
three_seagrass wrote: post #23

I mean, imagine the repercussions of allowing third party apps to do this. It's tragedy of the commons for health info. i.e. A crappy mobile app that spams notifications when you're around someone who was in contact with Covid infected. One which doesn't have any oversight and motivation other than mobile ad views.

The repurcussion is.. you know someone near you was in contact with covid (a good thing to know) and it has ads (devs need to eat too)?

It means scammy apps will spam contact notifications without proof just to get eyeballs, and that's on top of the ones using covid fears to phish for info. Bad actors will exploit this.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#190

Post by andy_ppp »

saagarjha wrote: post #72
taywrobel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could argue the exact same about literally any database used by the government. Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. If you don’t like the bullshit the government does, that seems like an issue you should take up with the government, no? You’re using a tech company as a scapegoat.

A technology company that takes advantage of holes in the law, and actively promotes that those holes are not closed…

A company then...
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