Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study • Hacker News Board

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#181

Post by CydeWeys » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:33 AM UTC

new299 wrote: post #123

jdietrich wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't even see many cigarette butts in Japan, because smokers carry a pocket ashtray.

Smoking culture in Japan appears to discourage smoking outside. In many places smoking outside is illegal. However some trains, many shopping centers and most restaurants have designated smoking areas. As such you’re somewhat less likely to see cigarette butts on the street in Japan in any case.

You know those little smoking enclosures that some airports have?

Yeah, those are all over Japan outside (albeit not air-tight ones). You only see people smoking in them or in buildings where smoking is allowed, commonly bars.

It's a pretty great way of controlling cigarette butt litter, actually.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#182

Post by CydeWeys » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:35 AM UTC

frosted-flakes wrote: post #122

neverartful wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm old enough to clearly remember when Coca Cola was distributed in glass bottles. There was no plastic of any kind, except for maybe a gasket inside the metal cap. Individual serving size bottles had bottle caps and larger size had metal screw caps with metal safety-seal thingies that broke off when you opened it for the first time. All of them had deposits that were refunded when you turn them in. I don't know abo…

We do it for beer, so I don't see why not. At least in Ontario, I've seen people walking into the LCBO with cases of empty bottles (I don't drink alcohol myself, so can't confirm how prevalent this is). But glass bottles are heavy, and I'm sure that makes shipping more expensive and increases CO2 emissions.

For what it's worth, beer seems to be transitioning back to cans now on the high end. Cans are much lighter, still just as recyclable, and crucially, they keep the product fresher (which matters more for nice beer than for soda).

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#183

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:39 AM UTC

serf wrote: post #40

AYBABTME wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you develop an app, and everybody using your app always ends up deleting their data by clicking on the wrong button, and then people complain that your app loses data... ...in the end, the users are wrong in the moment, but the real problem is that your app allows a behavior that has negative outcomes, and the proper fix isn't to educate people, but to make it impossible for people to click that delete button so e…

>in the end, the users are wrong in the moment, but the real problem is that your app allows a behavior that has negative outcomes, and the proper fix isn't to educate people, but to make it impossible for people to click that delete button so easily, or maybe make the deletion recoverable. this is the kind of thinking that kills apps for power-users, and leads to dark patterns. You're not wrong, but I don't really l…

> this is the kind of thinking that kills apps for power-users, and leads to dark patterns.

Not necessarily. Well-applied, this thinking is what gave you --no-preserve-root in rm command. You still can delete your entire drive, you just won't do it by accident anymore.

I agree with your anxiety here though, some people do take this idea and turn it into "this feature is too dangerous; let's remove it for your own good", and nerf an otherwise useful tool.

> "We don't want X people doing Y, so let's subtly make it harder for X people to continue doing Y, without wholeheartedly admitting our intent." seems like a really slippery slope.

That this work is at this point a Nobel-winning insight (the "nudge"), so it's a matter of who's doing it and for what. It turns out that "free will" is a concept with little meaning at scale - large populations behave predictably.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#184

Post by dirkc » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:39 AM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #124

darkFunction wrote: post #112

A lot of discussion on this thread revolves around whose responsibility it is to ensure clean-up of plastic waste (producers or consumers) while ignoring the fact that companies are using a material that lasts 10,000 years for items that are single-use. That should be outright illegal unless there are literally no alternatives.

Is it really debatable about "who" left the garbage on the ground? Even if something only lasts a couple years, do we still want biodegrading trash littering everything? (we have raw food products right now, I wouldn't want those on the beach either...)

Sometimes people litter by accident. On many hikes I've picked up things which have either fallen out of a backpack - like a still sealed energy drink - or was forgotten there - like a jacket.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#185

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:42 AM UTC

rexpop wrote: post #143

rienbdj wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter whos fault it is. The only point in the system where we can reasonably fix it is at these companies.

Right. There isn't an ethical way to "upgrade" human operating system. It's infuriating to me how so many Hacker Newsites refuse to hold corporations accountable for their design flaws.

> It's infuriating to me how so many Hacker Newsites refuse to hold corporations accountable for their design flaws.

I have a silent hope that each thread like this means some commenters who haven't thought about this much before will achieve the crucial insights, like: (per GP) assigning blame isn't productive, effective solutions are; (per you) there's no easy way to just make people "be better", at scale people are predictable and follow incentives, so the main points of intervention should be these incentives and systems that create them.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#186

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, May 17, 2019, 9:48 AM UTC

Liquid_Fire wrote: post #179

lostlogin wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That stuff matters, but of far greater importance is the volume of plastic made. We make too much. It’s not particularly hard to reduce your usage a lot, but I think that’s coming at it from the wrong end. The manufacturers need to be incentivised to do better. Carrot and stick, with the stick getting bigger over time.

In Japan everything is overpackaged using ridiculous amounts of plastic (more so than in Europe, for example), and yet people don't litter. I think it's important to tackle the issue from both ends.

> and yet people don't litter.

I don't buy it. See CydeWeys's comments around this thread. Also, having lots of people cleaning the streets only makes it look like there's little littering.

> I think it's important to tackle the issue from both ends.

Sure. Thing is, tackling it from the corporate end will be ridiculously more effective than trying to instill new societal norms.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#187

Post by chewz » Fri, May 17, 2019, 10:00 AM UTC

darkFunction wrote: post #112

A lot of discussion on this thread revolves around whose responsibility it is to ensure clean-up of plastic waste (producers or consumers) while ignoring the fact that companies are using a material that lasts 10,000 years for items that are single-use. That should be outright illegal unless there are literally no alternatives.

Overconsumption should be illegal.

What if every person had been issued a certain limited credit amount for a lifetime? And then they can decide what to do:

- drink from plastic bottles - have children - have a personal car - wear cotton t-shirts - go some retail therapy - have a large lawn - fly to exotic vacations - ...

The list continues....

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#188

Post by perceptronas » Fri, May 17, 2019, 10:11 AM UTC

chewz wrote: post #187

darkFunction wrote: post #112

A lot of discussion on this thread revolves around whose responsibility it is to ensure clean-up of plastic waste (producers or consumers) while ignoring the fact that companies are using a material that lasts 10,000 years for items that are single-use. That should be outright illegal unless there are literally no alternatives.

Overconsumption should be illegal. What if every person had been issued a certain limited credit amount for a lifetime? And then they can decide what to do: - drink from plastic bottles - have children - have a personal car - wear cotton t-shirts - go some retail therapy - have a large lawn - fly to exotic vacations - ... The list continues....

this would fit perfectly in socialist country. Want toiler paper? get papers and wait in line

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#189

Post by scotty79 » Fri, May 17, 2019, 10:17 AM UTC

chewz wrote: post #187

darkFunction wrote: post #112

A lot of discussion on this thread revolves around whose responsibility it is to ensure clean-up of plastic waste (producers or consumers) while ignoring the fact that companies are using a material that lasts 10,000 years for items that are single-use. That should be outright illegal unless there are literally no alternatives.

Overconsumption should be illegal. What if every person had been issued a certain limited credit amount for a lifetime? And then they can decide what to do: - drink from plastic bottles - have children - have a personal car - wear cotton t-shirts - go some retail therapy - have a large lawn - fly to exotic vacations - ... The list continues....

What if this credit could be not equal for everybody but adjusted by how useful persons contributions are for other people? It could be dynamic!

Wait, we already have that. It's called money and doesn't help all that much for polution from single use, forever trash items. Maybe they are just priced wrong?

I think if government just cleaned up the oceans and sent bill to Coca-Cola for each bottle, market would solve things fairly quickly.

Re: Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study

#190

Post by NeedMoreTea » Fri, May 17, 2019, 10:29 AM UTC

easytiger wrote: post #168

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on. It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter - just look at any festival, concert, or sports match. When it was your granddad it was mostly paper bags, maybe wrapped in newspaper, maybe a few crown corks. The glass got carefully taken home as there was a hefty deposit on those beer bottles! Now it's knee-deep single use eve…

> It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter That statement is false. Not all humans drop litter. In the west it is widely taught as wrong, often punishable by fines. Find me the person who states they should have a right to litter please. Not to mention the fact that biogradable packagi\ ng does little to nothing by way of helping l…

Yet everywhere humans gather, for the entirety of our existence, there is litter. A good chunk of archaeology is sifting through ancient litter - as it is so consistently prevalent.

We will continue to have litter no matter how much teaching, fining or visible policing there is. See Singapore - highly developed laws on littering, fines, and very visible policing. Yet they still employ a more than average amount of people to keep the place looking spick and span. That should simply not be necessary if it's down to attitude or teaching alone. It would all be in the bin back at home or hotel.

Seems like that statement is still very true globally, and will remain so - despite best efforts of teaching, legislature and culture.

What has changed, and changed markedly, is single use packaging on the back of industry pressure and lobbying. No longer do business seem to feel part of the problem or the solution, or even of society and the problems they create within it. Just call it an externality and be done. Hence the rise of lobbying pushing it away and onto the customer, as it's cheaper and easier - for them alone. You end up with armfuls more waste just from a single takeaway, including the always useless plastic or wood coffee stirrer.

To solve the problem that part of responsibility has to be pushed back to source, where it was created. Whilst society again employ enough people to keep cities and tourist spots looking attractive - as well as expecting individuals to act well. Placing it entirely on recipient alone is indeed bollocks, as is giving industry an ever bigger free-pass to produce more and more regardless.