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False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

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Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#181

Post by EADGBE »

mikekchar wrote: post #43
hmwhy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their s…

> Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I taught EFL at a high school for 5 years. Being a good teacher takes a lot of experience, inspiration and hard work. It is a very, very difficult job. When I was doing it, I often thought how much easier it is to explain things to a computer compared to a person -- especially when the person is o…

This, along with so many other replies here, really brings home the point that some people just aren't ready yet straight outta high school.

We really need to quit pushing them; they're not ready. They'll most likely fail and be in a worse position than they were going into it.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#182

Post by keithwhor »

mcculley wrote: post #148
jwally wrote: post #92

The U.S. would do itself a huge favour by allowing student debt to be bankruptable. College prices can rise infinitely because there is an unlimited supply of AAA+ debt to feed it. Drop that rating to reality and investors don't buy the debt, loans don't get originated, demand for college at $250k dries up.

It would require huge political will to go against the existing system. I'm excited about Lambda School ( https://lambdaschool.com ). If they are successful, there should be lots of investors trying out similar models and destroying the existing system.

One problem here is that, at least in my humble opinion, education should ultimately be (or trend towards becoming) a basic human right. Repackaging debt as wage garnishment while making job placement easier makes the job market more efficient, certainly. I can understand why people are excited. It doesn't fix the underlying structural issues in the American education system.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#183

Post by VLM »

mkirklions wrote: post #118
jwally wrote: post #92

The U.S. would do itself a huge favour by allowing student debt to be bankruptable. College prices can rise infinitely because there is an unlimited supply of AAA+ debt to feed it. Drop that rating to reality and investors don't buy the debt, loans don't get originated, demand for college at $250k dries up.

(I think) I'm a fan of getting rid of subsidized loans for education. It has only made the cost of education go up rather than make college affordable. But on the flip side, what can be expected from people with no ability to afford college at the new price? Ive been told over and over that my personal situation working full time on the midnight shift and going to college is 'unrealistic' for everyone to do. So whats…

My guess is the meme that higher ed is something you only do between 18-22 will disappear.

Also the meme that all blue collar jobs require a higher ed degree, such as bartender, waitress, secretary, day care worker, receptionist, all of that will go back to "high school grad" as a job req.

Of course with prevailing long term trends, "having a full time job" or "having medical care" will soon be a luxury few will experience.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#184

Post by zip1234 »

gdubs wrote: post #174
zip1234 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already done. Education is considered a public good. That is why K-12 education is paid for in the US. As far as a higher degree, the landscapers working across the street probably would not benefit from getting a degree and I do not see how the public would benefit from paying for a degree for those guys either. There are a significant number of jobs out there that would not benefit from people getting a degree. The…

The degree might not matter for certain types of jobs, but the additional education could still enrich people’s lives — and a more educated populace could make for a better society in general.

Did you read my comment? I mentioned that community colleges already provide additional, cheap, education that fulfill that additional education.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#185

Post by EADGBE »

lsiebert wrote: post #38
sigfubar wrote: post #12

I think that most people shouldn't aspire to go to college. They should learn a trade instead in order to become a plumber, carpenter, electrician, or car mechanic. There are lots of occupations that don't require a college degree, yet provide a solid paycheck without the crushing mass of student debt accrued in the pursuit of a useless degree. Michael Bloomberg himself said it best: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2…

That implies that college is only important for skill transfer towards an occupation. Historically, part of college was to help an individual grow personally and intellectually, to learn not just what to think, but how to think clearly, in order to better engage with civil society as an active participant. It's always a little off-putting when I see people suggest that higher education is just for a job, and discount…

Critical thinking is important, even in the trades.

But trades are results-driven. The critical thought, business-mindedness, etc have all developed without the 4 year degree precondition for all successful trades.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#186

Post by tnecniv »

hakfoo wrote: post #32
cm2012 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think more jobs should be trades. Data analyst (not machine learning, but running SQL queries, etc), marketing, bookkeeping, sales, etc, dont need 4 year degrees. 1 year bootcamp could get people reliable jobs.

What bothers me-- assuming there's still a preference for a full degree over a bootcamp certificate-- is that even clearly career focused degree paths are still burdened down with an "academia" mindset that feels dated and quaint. The old "college is about being well rounded/learning how to learn" narratives made sense 50-100 years ago, when people were going to university as more a "cultural elite" thing. The rich 2…

> However, the kids signing up today-- especially in well-known high-revenue programs (CS, EE, etc) are in it because they either 1) love the subject matter or 2) are bootstrapping their careers. These kids have neither use nor interest in becoming cultured or well-rounded. They'll go further referencing Dennis Ritchie than William Blake.

Except it's a pretty common lament that most people who major in CS/EE/whatever don't actually learn the skills in college that they use daily on the job. Honestly, the most important thing I got out of my EE degree was comfort reading research papers and confidence that I can learn whatever I want with time and effort.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#187

Post by jessaustin »

ppseafield wrote: post #62
stealthmodeclan wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these are the the folks that benefit the most and contribute the least to society by several orders of magnitude Let's not assume there are only 2 groups, one rich/evil and other poor/victims. There are also rich who contribute positively to the soceity at large. I've no problem with with poor people who contribute their share. There are also poor people who negatively contribute to the soceity. Money is not the on…

I absolutely did not classify all rich people. I specifically called out the extra wealthy that go out of their way to avoid taxes via loopholes or accounting tricks. Do you think Apple's billions of dollars in avoided tax is the same as someone shitting on the BART escalator? Do you think it's the same as McDonald's Corp not paying a living wage and as a result its employees being poor enough to need food stamps? (W…

It sounds like you're drawing the "extra wealthy" line at "can afford to spend $300 with a CPA"? Nobody wants to pay more taxes than they have to pay.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#188

Post by gdubs »

zip1234 wrote: post #184
gdubs wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The degree might not matter for certain types of jobs, but the additional education could still enrich people’s lives — and a more educated populace could make for a better society in general.

Did you read my comment? I mentioned that community colleges already provide additional, cheap, education that fulfill that additional education.

Honestly missed / misread that last sentence!

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#189

Post by satsuma »

randomdata wrote: post #140
reaperducer wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds good in writing, but it doesn’t seem to work in real life for some reason. Two of the cities I’ve lived in have been places with several large businesses focused on a single non-factory industry. They could never get enough workers, so demand for labor was high and because of that so were wages. The prevailing attitude among the very local teens (2nd generation plus) was “Why should I go to college when I…

> The result is that most of the locals are pretty dumb. It is concerning to me that after approximately 18 years on earth and 12 years of schooling that the locals are still dumb. But as little as two to four more years of school can transform them into smart, well rounded, people capable of understanding complex social issues related to their city and beyond. It seems the real shame is not that college is expensive…

american high schools aren't proper schools in the sense that they educate their students for life ahead, they're day care. they encourage rote memorization and regurgitation of data instead of critical thinking and processing of the world around us. if you memorize and regurgitate to a passable standard (which is set quite low, at least in the rural public school i attended) they shake your hand and send you out on your way.

i think proper college reform needs to start lower, and make proper adults out of our high school grads instead of requiring four years of paid-for university to accomplish that. unfortunately, i'm no expert and i don't have the foggiest idea where you'd start with that.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#190

Post by learc83 »

paulie_a wrote: post #80
epicide wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30k USD per semester is on the high side. There are plenty of state schools that have in-state tuition that ends up being about 30k USD for all 4 years. Not everyone is lucky enough to live in a state with a good one, however.

30k-60 a year is not uncommon

For public university tuition it is. $30k for a semester's tuition is very expensive for the sticker price for a private university (most students aren't paying the sticker price).
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