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Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

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Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#181

Post by jdietrich »

tomp wrote: post #139
jdietrich wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our electoral system makes it damned near impossible to elect someone else. At the 1983 general election, the SDP won 25.4% of the popular vote, giving them 23 seats in parliament. Labour won 27.6% of the popular vote, giving them 209 seats. We are a de-facto two-party state, because the design of our electoral system is drastically biased in favour of the established major parties. We did consider switching to a fai…

> We did consider switching to a fairer electoral system in 2011, but ironically enough we decided against it by referendum. On the other hand, the countries with the most stable democracies (measured in centuries) (US and UK) have two-party systems. So maybe the choice was less obvious than you allude to.

Stability of government is a perfectly legitimate defence of a first-past-the-post system, but that carries an inevitable democratic deficit - you're arguing for the benefits of constraining the choices of the electorate.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to that argument, but it places a far greater onus of responsibility on our dominant parties. If our electoral system prevents a diverse range of parties in parliament, then those parties have a duty to represent the diversity of the electorate.

In the case of the EU referendum, they have a duty to represent the interests of both the 52% and the 48%. Totally ignoring almost-but-not-quite half of the electorate is just mob rule dressed up as democracy.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#182

Post by throwaway928734 »

HumanDrivenDev wrote: post #178
pjc50 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She might have been impeached at this point Why? > need to get over both results The results deliver real harm to real people. The separated immigrant children are probably never going to get over it, for example. And I'm not going to get over a result while I'm still worrying about stockpiling food. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-brexi... > Imagine if between 2008-2016 HN had been full of o…

She might have been impeached at this point Because she was incredibly corrupt. Seems likely that foreign intelligence agencies had even more information they could leak. The separated immigrant children are probably never going to get over it, for example. It's unfortunate their parents decided to break the laws of the United States and enter the country illegally. Maybe their plight will discourage others from doin…

>> It's unfortunate their parents decided to break the laws of the United States and enter the country illegally. Maybe their plight will discourage others from doing the same.

Oh I agree. How about we rip every shred of your family and punish them en masse, fucking nazi scum. Let's see, got any kids? Let's start with them. Who the fuck are you to think America is for whites only. Yeah, we've had enough. It's time to rise against these fascist KKK filth. You will be defeated.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#183

Post by tathougies »

pjc50 wrote: post #156
tathougies wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2966 and 2968 are about what the new borders of the UK would effectively be if Turkey is allowed to join the EU. Regardless of your thoughts on the Middle East, it is clear that there are dangerous people in Iraq. Given that the EU has open borders and markets (for the most part), isn't it a germaine discussion if that supranational entity wants to enlarge its borders to include ports of entry from a somewhat unstabl…

> Unless you claim that any kind of criticism of an outside country is xenophobia Stereotype-based criticism of other countries is xenophobia.

The criticisms they had seemed backed up by data. They cite wage disparities between the UK and other potential EU members. They cite various events that many Britons (I assume) would find offensive (like the Norwegian whale hunts and spanish bull fights).

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#184

Post by growlist »

untog wrote: post #175
growlist wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should or should not is something you've introduced yourself. I was saying it was never a fair fight to start with and given this the incessant sour grapes from the overwhelming favourite has an air of pathos about it.

>it was never a fair fight to start with What is a fair fight in this context? If there was a referendum to decide whether the country believes in evolution would you make sure the balance of scientists vs cranks in the public sphere was exactly 50:50? The vast majority of people with knowledge in the area knew that Brexit was a terrible idea, so they said so. And reality has proven them right. Or is this a prelude t…

It's kind of like Goliath saying to David 'why couldn't we have a fair fight!', conveniently ignoring his massive advantage.

You've lost me entirely with your last comments. Opinion polls showed a narrow Remain victory - that's a matter of fact - and that's the very definition of favourite. To say the result changes the favourite after the fact is frankly bonkers.

And portraying themselves as a victimized minority? I think you got that from the Guardian the other day didn't you? Anyway given that the powers that be keep trying their hardest to subvert the democratic will of the people, it doesn't seem unreasonable.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#185

Post by untog »

growlist wrote: post #184
untog wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it was never a fair fight to start with What is a fair fight in this context? If there was a referendum to decide whether the country believes in evolution would you make sure the balance of scientists vs cranks in the public sphere was exactly 50:50? The vast majority of people with knowledge in the area knew that Brexit was a terrible idea, so they said so. And reality has proven them right. Or is this a prelude t…

It's kind of like Goliath saying to David 'why couldn't we have a fair fight!', conveniently ignoring his massive advantage. You've lost me entirely with your last comments. Opinion polls showed a narrow Remain victory - that's a matter of fact - and that's the very definition of favourite. To say the result changes the favourite after the fact is frankly bonkers. And portraying themselves as a victimized minority? I…

Wait, two posts ago you were the one complaining about the lack of fair fight, and now you're using it in an analogy where the losing side is complaining about it despite their advantage. It's no wonder I don't know what you're talking about, you very clearly don't either.

I have no idea what Guardian piece you're referring to. I'd certainly never claim to be the only person capable of formulating such an obvious conclusion from the evidence in front of me. Won the referendum, have no idea how to actually follow through on the promise, so blame anyone but themselves. That's where Leave is today.

And please, save the "democratic will of the people" guff. A 52/48 vote when people didn't even know what they were voting for. For example, Leave campaigners said we'd stay in the single market, and get £350m for the NHS, yet here we are on the precipice of leaving the single market and NHS budget freefall. You can try to deflect the blame for that all you want, but the reality is that the Leave side didn't think they'd win, made a pile of fanciful promises anyone with their head screwed on knew would never come to fruition, and then sat there and shat themselves for months on end while they were supposed to be negotiating an exit. No one voted for this.

55% of people would prefer to remain in the EU than crash out with a no deal Brexit, so presumably you'd be fine with that "will of the people" too. Or are opinion polls bad when they don't say what you want?

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#186

Post by Symbiote »

tathougies wrote: post #179
detaro wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean... britain wouldn't be the ones policing the border, it would be turkey. You were clearly talking about the Turkish border in your previous comment. Entering Turkey doesn't make you an EU citizen, and the UK, not being part of Schengen and having no land border to the mainland, has lots of freedom to police it's own borders against non-EU nationals trying to enter from other EU countries. Turkish (then EU) c…

Ah, because the UK has its own internal border where they would verify citizenship. I forgot about that. So you're saying that, if an Iraqi national is allowed entry into a hypothetical Turkey in the EU -- even if Turkey were to have open borders with the rest of the EU -- that same person would have to go through UK border security separately still.

Correct, and they would risk deportation in Turkey, the UK, or whatever EU state they reside in until discovered.

The other countries tend to check residence before allowing a job, healthcare or similar.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#187

Post by oh_sigh »

belltaco wrote: post #123
oh_sigh wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are any of those xenophobic? To me that sounds similar to labeling someone as antisocial if they don't want a stranger living in their house.

Why do you need an analogy for that? It's quite literally someone who doesn't want someone of a different ethnicity as their neighbor, which is xenophobic.

Did you look at the ads? A bunch of them have people of various ethnicities, represented as doctors, nurses, and random people who are for Leave. I really doubt it has something to do with ethnicity.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#188

Post by tathougies »

Symbiote wrote: post #186
tathougies wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, because the UK has its own internal border where they would verify citizenship. I forgot about that. So you're saying that, if an Iraqi national is allowed entry into a hypothetical Turkey in the EU -- even if Turkey were to have open borders with the rest of the EU -- that same person would have to go through UK border security separately still.

Correct, and they would risk deportation in Turkey, the UK, or whatever EU state they reside in until discovered. The other countries tend to check residence before allowing a job, healthcare or similar.

Why would they risk deportation if they legally entered turkey?

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#189

Post by nailer »

nailer wrote: post #125
petepete wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they do. They also know that migrant workers have a positive impact on our economy. They also know the unelected bureaucrats are elected and held to account. And they also knew that there would be issues around Northern Ireland's border that wouldn't be easy to resolve. And they also knew that... I'm bored now but you get the picture.

MEPs do not propose legistlation, that is done by a seperate group, the European Commission. The European Commission is not directly elected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission > There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.[3] One of the 28 is the Commission President (currently J…

I don't normally comment on moderation, but the post above is a statement of fact linking to a very well referenced source.

Re: Facebook finally hands over leave campaign Brexit ads

#190

Post by pjc50 »

HumanDrivenDev wrote: post #178
pjc50 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She might have been impeached at this point Why? > need to get over both results The results deliver real harm to real people. The separated immigrant children are probably never going to get over it, for example. And I'm not going to get over a result while I'm still worrying about stockpiling food. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-brexi... > Imagine if between 2008-2016 HN had been full of o…

She might have been impeached at this point Because she was incredibly corrupt. Seems likely that foreign intelligence agencies had even more information they could leak. The separated immigrant children are probably never going to get over it, for example. It's unfortunate their parents decided to break the laws of the United States and enter the country illegally. Maybe their plight will discourage others from doin…

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