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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

181–190 of 260 posts

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#181
post #95
post #50

It is interesting that the article’s discussion of the history of work begins with Marx, as the modern conception of work lies in the industrial revolution, of which he was a crucial byproduct. His entire Weltanschauung presumed that organized work was the default activity of humans, and with that as a given, proceeded from there. Modern economics, including neoliberal economics, uses his vocabulary by default, makin…

The final piece of course is the cultural reform required for UBI. What will you spend your UBI on if the goods and services are not being produced, because no one is being paid to do them?

Either there's a market-clearing price for the goods and services you want or there isn't. If you want something that someone would have to put themselves out to produce, then either you make it worthwhile for them to put themselves out by that much (perhaps by paying them money, perhaps by producing your own goods and services in the categories that are inconvenient or tedious to produce) or you decide the thing is not worth that much to you.

The belief is that this category of goods and services would be rare - that most things are not so inconvenient or tedious to produce, that most demand could be covered without making people put themselves out a lot. Of course it's possible this is wrong.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#182
post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

There's only one problem with that - it's not true. The author cites no sources for his claim and every source I've found contradicts him. The average number of hours actually worked has slightly declined in the US and significantly declined in Europe over the past few decades. In the broader historical arc, there has been a huge increase in leisure; the average working week throughout the 19th century was well in ex…

Does this data include commute times? Those are on the rise, which may not count as work but the time cost certainly should.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/02/22/the-a...

I have coworkers doing 2 hours each way. A 4 hour commute each day would certainly eat into your time.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#183
post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

No, everyone likes work. We call it "hobbies" when its not formally productive and "vocations" when it is. Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it. They either can't at all, or they are forced to fit it around wasted time, or they have to gamble on trying to build it up from nothing, and often losing their stake and their beloved work.

> Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it.

It's actually pretty good at it. The really fulfilling jobs like nursing or teaching go to those who are willing to sacrifice most other luxuries to do them; those who don't get a fulfilling job get more consumption to make up for it. Enjoyable work is a commodity like anything else.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is exactly it. Slavery was distasteful so we used the modern economy to abstract the slavery out of sight, hide it under the rug. One click buy! Pay no attention to the machine behind the curtain. Wish Amazon would offer an entirely "Made in first world with protected workers" store.

How does that help a poor worker in Bangladesh? In many of these countries people voluntarily choose to work in these factories. They're terrible places to work, but apparently its still better than working in the fields. A more effective strategy might be something like: https://www.ijm.org/who-we-are . They work within these countries to protect workers from the worst human rights abuses. (ie child sex trafficking…

People "voluntarily choose" to not starve or wind up homeless.

That's a very narrow definition of "voluntary".

Show me people doing things they would do even if they weren't getting paid to do it. That's voluntary.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had similar thoughts about the meaning of it all. But I didn't question life per se, I questioned the rat race. "Why am I working all day?", "Why do I spend the best parts of the day in an office?", "Why can't I still afford a house even though I make good money?" and questions of that nature. I wasn't as unhappy as you sound, I just didn't see the purpose of it (working) anymore. And so I decided not to do it anym…

I'd like to add onto this point. Started cheffing at 17, always wanted to code, self taught enough to be qualified as a chef and get a job programming for a fairly large company by 22. It sucked. As you said, waiting for assignments, no decision making and just another cog in a very large wheel. Went back to cheffing, I've now travelled all over Australia, lived in Japan for 6 years, met a woman who became my wife an…

Makes me think of observations I've made about cooking in better restaurants. It doesn't pay well and the work requires skill/experience and long hours, and demand (at least here) is extremely high.

High demand, high skill... why doesn't it pay better? The only answer is that there must be some other benefits to the field. They have to pay people better to work in an office because office work sucks a lot more.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#186
Some choice quotes that will show you this great society these people are thinking of. Notice it is mostly a rehashing of socialism, communism, and anarchism, and most post-workists are radical leftist hoping to to make another push into society:

> In 1884, the socialist William Morris proposed that in “beautiful” factories of the future, surrounded by gardens for relaxation, employees should work only “four hours a day”.

> that life with much less work, or no work at all, would be calmer, more equal, more communal, more pleasurable, more thoughtful, more politically engaged

> Graeber has a point: “I do think there is a fear of freedom – a fear among the powerful that people might find something better to do than create profits for capitalism.”

> Graeber argues that in a less labour-intensive society, our capacity for things other than work could be built up again. “People will come up with stuff to do if you give them enough time. I lived in a village in Madagascar once. There was this intricate sociability. People would hang around in cafes, gossiping, having affairs, using magic. It was a very complex drama – the kind that can only develop when you have enough time. They certainly weren’t bored!”

(Or just supporters are absolutely nuts like this one.)

> “The postwar years, when people worked less and it was easier to be on the dole, produced beat poetry, avant garde theatre, 50-minute drum solos, and all Britain’s great pop music – art forms that take time to produce and consume.”

> “You get your UBI payment from the government. Then you get a form from your local council telling you about things going on in your area: a five-a-side football tournament, say, or community activism – Big Society stuff, almost.”

> One common proposal is for a new type of public building, usually envisaged as a well-equipped combination of library, leisure centre and artists’ studios. “It could have social and care spaces, equipment for programming, for making videos and music, record decks,”

> “Instead of having jobs, we’re going to do craft, to make our own clothes. It’s quite an exclusionary vision: to do those things, you need to be able-bodied.”

> With people having more time, and probably less money, private life could also become more communal, she suggests, with families sharing kitchens, domestic appliances, and larger facilities. “There have been examples of this before,” she says, “like ‘Red Vienna’ in the early 20th century, when the [social democratic] city government built housing estates with communal laundries, workshops, and shared living spaces that were quite luxurious.” Post-work is about the future, but it is also bursting with the past’s lost possibilities.

Telling people they will have less money and resources - they will have start sharing housing, but they'll like having less.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#188

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

Your dissatisfaction comes from looking to work for meaning. There is no implicit meaning—only that which you create for yourself.

Yet we spend about half or more of our waking hours at it.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#189
post #140

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

At the risk of sounding banal, I believe it's worth checking to see if you have a severe depression. Because that's how depression feels. There are people out there who derive great pleasure from writing uninspired code. Not only doesn't work need to be the main source of meaning in your live (in addition to providing income), its perceived value is heavily dependent on your psychological and physiologial condition.…

I think those who "derive great pleasure from writing uninspired code" are mostly enjoying their well paying job.

Very few people actively enjoy laboring for others. That's why they need to pay you to do it.

I enjoy building my own projects, but I have never found work stimulating unless I maneuvered myself into a position where I could learn something new. Unfortunately once you learn that new thing, and then refactor it as far as you can, you're back to boring uninspired work again.

Not to mention the parts of work which are actively terrible. Like hunting down a bug in a dependency.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that's more a symptom of people doing work they loathe. When there's intrinsic motivation for doing work, people are productive for the overwhelming majority of the time spent working, and breaks magically evaporate.

The trouble is when you start doing something for money it always seems to drain any intrinsic motivation you had.

Not at all. I think too many technologists (including myself these days) sit behind far too many layers of abstractions.

Coding a quick Perl script to solve a real world problem on a factory floor and watching a dozen machinists start grinning and get way more productive is something I've been paid to do, and I never got unmotivated by. One of those jobs where you simply stay until the job is done, and don't feel put out in the least you got home at 11pm.

It's when you're slogging away 12 factors removed on some crap you know is utterly meaningless to anyone - even if it's in tooling you like - that's when I get severe motivational problems. I'd rather work as a cashier at a gas station where at least I can see the effect I have on society with my labor.

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