Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Swift is like Kotlin

nilhcem.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 364 posts

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#181

Post by Jach »

3chelon wrote: post #152
Jach wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see a line. Though if there's an element of humor I see an orthogonal anti-line that will annihilate any attempts at line-drawing. I'm sure you could find a name that if not met with indifference or a laugh would elicit from me an eyeroll or a statement like "come on, that's dumb" or maybe "that's just asking to derail conversations" but I don't think you could 'trigger' me into a fit. (Of course you're welco…

Point taken, but the original point was being associated with the name, not throwing a fit. Having it on your CV/resume, for example. Potentially alienating clients because of words that stand out from the page in the wrong context. I can see a problem.

The point I responded to was maybe we should be above politics in names, to at least be capable of treating names with a professional indifference. To that end there's a simple test to see if someone you're considering working with believes that too. (Of course it's fully reversible, maybe the future will require passionate condemnation of names that might give offense in order to get hired.) For your point of unsavory associations, sure, but it depends on your expectations for audiences. What's the cost of association if no one throws a fit? What is alienation over a word if not a fit?

I can see a problem if you expect to pay that cost frequently when you bring up the word, and thus avoiding it, but if that's really the case it's worth wondering what other sorts of issues will come up that you don't expect when deciding to take the chance of alienation cost. If I made something as awesome as Stalin I'd put it on my resume, even if it resulted in periodic emails/comments about how insensitive a name it is. Even if some tech readers won't want to work with me because of it, I wouldn't want to work with them, so we're both happy, and we find that out before we actually try working together. I wouldn't put a 'I made Stalin' bumper sticker on my vehicle though. For a name like Kotlin, I really doubt Ukrainian programmers would be upset over it, it seems so absurd, but I can see the possible issue of the general public being sensitive about it in which case it's wise to only have the association in tech contexts.

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#182

Post by codecamper »

markcerqueira wrote: post #127
NathanFlurry wrote: post #62

One has structures, ARC, proper extensions, good protocols/interfaces, flexible enums, and runs natively. The other one doesn't. I think I'll choose the former.

I've done both iOS and Android and I'll take Java + Kotlin + Android Studio over the iOS stack any day.

Have you tried AppCode?

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#183

Post by dep_b »

danieldisu wrote: post #112
NathanFlurry wrote: post #62

One has structures, ARC, proper extensions, good protocols/interfaces, flexible enums, and runs natively. The other one doesn't. I think I'll choose the former.

I'll take good IDE support over any of the things you mention above. Seeing how my colleagues refactor in XCode makes me cringe every time... Kotlin support in IntelliJ is almost as good as Java.

Yet they could use AppCode by JetBrains if they wanted.

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#184

Post by kybernetikos »

throwaway7645 wrote: post #180
guelo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kotlin Native ships with an ARC. But depending on the application ARC can be a disadvantage since it can't automatically handle reference cycles like Kotlin on the JVM can.

Is the Native AOT compiled, or just a different byte code VM? I assume the latter?

The Kotlin/Native compiler produces standalone executables that can run without any virtual machine.

> https://blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2017/04/kotlinnative-tech-...

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#185

Post by kybernetikos »

breeze_em_out wrote: post #157
3chelon wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but is there a line? Where does it get drawn? Without explicitly naming them, once you get into the realm of Stalinism or the holocaust, surely it wouldn't take too much imagination to come up with a few names too unsavoury even for you?

There is no line. Expression is turing complete. That you might not like something I say does not have any effect on my right to say it as a human being. Obviously the names are tongue in cheek jabs. There's no language called Auschwitz, afaik, and even if there was, it would have as much right to exist as Java or Python or whatever. You don't get to tell people what to name things just because you're offended. You g…

> You don't get to tell people what to name things just because you're offended.

Sure you do, and you get to say your reasons too, refuse to adopt something based on those reasons and try to persuade other people and organizations to accept your reasons. You even get to apply mild sanctions - like not buying things from them or discouraging others from interacting with the person who did the thing that offended you.

You just don't get to forcibly compel anyone. If they disagree with your reasons and don't care about upsetting you, you can't make them change.

It seems that a lot of people want not just freedom to offend with their speech, but also freedom from the reasonable consequences of offending (including responding speech), which is even less coherent than wanting freedom from offensive speech.

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#186

Post by yorwba »

borland wrote: post #52
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the corresponding design decision would be "0..=n". Swift's "0...n" is a bit less obvious. Also, exclusivity is almost always what you want, so "0..n" should just default to exclusivity and "0...n" could be inclusive.

This is the exact opposite to ruby, which uses `0..n` as inclusive, and `0...n` as exclusive http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9690801/difference-betwee... I always remembered it as "the third dot makes it bigger so it pushes the range and the last item falls off". I can't remember where that came from, perhaps related to the poignant guide: http://poignant.guide/book/chapter-3.html#section2 I actually find in pract…

> I suspect `0..=n` would work similarly well, but I've not seen a real language to ever do that yet

This could be extended to cover `0=..=n`, `0You can actually define that syntax in Haskell:

    Prelude> let a =..= b = [a..b]
    Prelude> let a  let a  let a =.. (1 =..= 4, 1

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#187

Post by filomeno »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #144
AsyncAwait wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in Ukraine it would be very hard to get adoption of a programming language that is named after a Russian military base. This sounds really stupid, considering that many Ukrainian programmers are already using JetBrains products and that punishing a great company for the actions of politicians is kind of sad.

Would you work in a programming language called Hitler? Any multinational company needs to do their research before deciding on a name.

What does the name of an individual have to do with that of an island?

Wayland: I think it's the name of some America place. Should afghans, syrians, viets, [put whatever country the US invaded] stick to X11 because of this?

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#188

Post by epmaybe »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #172
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you work in a programming language called Hitler? Any multinational company needs to do their research before deciding on a name.

Equating a programming language named after a Russian island to Hitler is a real stretch, unless you think that everything Russian is like Hitler. It's just an island and a language named after it.

Sure, but that's not really answering the question is it.

I think I wouldn't necessarily put that I use Hitler on my CV, due to the negative feedback I would receive from others not in the field.

But on the other hand, barely anyone in the United States has even heard of the island Kotlin, so I'd feel more comfortable doing that.

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#189

Post by filomeno »

kozak wrote: post #158
kpobococ wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukrainian here. Where did you hear that? Don't read news there anymore, they manipulate you. Ukraine introduced sanctions against russian businesses on its territory. As part of those sanctions, websites of three major russian IT companies have been blocked. That included Yandex (which is very similar to google, also has a lot of web services), and a couple of russian social networks.

I can say the same. Those services that were banned are either the most outrageous war propaganda outlets, or honeypots that gather intelligence information (imagine half of all Ukrainians communicating via a social network that is fully controlled by the enemy).

> Those services that were banned are either the most outrageous war propaganda outlets

That's what most totalitarian states say when they limit the access to the information.

> Imagine half of all Ukrainians communicating via a social network that is fully controlled by the enemy

Oh, yeah, I see now. You were being sarcastic, isn't it?

Re: Swift is like Kotlin

#190

Post by _31 »

Past the syntax similarities, both of these languages are intended replacements for an 'old' language (Objective-C => Swift, Java => Kotlin) on a dominant mobile platform, with interoperability as a major selling point (requirement?). As a mobile dev (mainly iOS) this is awesome to see and although I love me some Objective-C, working with swift has been a pleasure. Now Java on the other hand... (shudders). With Google making Kotlin an official/first-class language and the syntax being so similar to swift I could see myself spending more time working with Android.
Post reply on HN