Why Germany Educates International Students for Free • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#181

Post by jernfrost » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 11:36 AM UTC

Boothroid wrote: post #28

Another possible reason - they may well have little choice! Lists of top ranked universities are generally dominated by the US/UK. In this list the highest ranked German institution is at number 30: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... It's always going to be hard to charge the same as a competitor when your product is inferior.

Ranking has nothing to do with quality of education. It is bullshit. Studies show they don't improve your grades, results or earning potential. They just look good on paper because they do creaming. They got the best research professors and students clustering there which makes their results look good.

But what matters is how much of an improvement does an ivy league mean to a student compared to going to an average ranked university. Turns out it makes no difference. In some cases it actually makes your grades worse. E.g. if you are at the lower tier of a ivy, then it will kill your self esteem and motivation being around so many smart people, that studies show you will perform worse.

Ivy's are like useless luxury products, like a Gucci bag. It is for show off. No wonder asians are so obsessed with university rankings. They are also obsessed with luxury products. That is because those are societies obsessed about showing status and accomplishments.

If OTOH you don't care about superfluous things you don't need an ivy. I've seen how going for Ivy stuff can screw up people. Being around all these bright people, can create an insane expectation on yourself, and if you don't live up to that afterwards, it can haunt you for the rest of your life. Many people would have simply been happier individuals if they dropped the Ivy's altogether.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#182

Post by sparkling » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 11:41 AM UTC

The article is wrong on so many ways.

The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the best grades or skills.

Furthermore, many seem to assume that Germany somehow needs to offer this tax payer subsidized "free" university program to attract foreign students to fill shortages in the workforce. This is not the case. First, despite constant media reports saying otherwise, there is no major talent shortage expect in very few niches. Second, any EU-citizen (thats 600+ million people outside of Germany) can work in Germany without any permission required. Third, for non-EU citizens there already is a visa program (the "blue card") that allows them to work in the EU if they are qualified, e.g. have a Masters degree from their home country.

In summary: German tax payers are asked to fund the education of foreigners at little to no return. Given the "free" nature of the program, it attracts rather unqualified students (or, lets say at least not the top notch).

All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third-world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#183

Post by jernfrost » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 11:43 AM UTC

thesumofall wrote: post #97

Boothroid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously doubt the average Ivy League/Oxbridge aspirant would ever consider a Germany university as an alternative. Below these few elite universities you have another upper tier which in the UK would be Imperial/UCL/Durham etc. (although some departments in this supposedly lower tier are superior to the top tier). Below that you have another tier, and looking at this tier in the global rankings you are starting t…

Just because some students don't aspire to go to a German university doesn't mean the quality of education would be any worse. Many of my close friends (and me personally as well) did their undergrad in Germany and then a semester abroad and/or their Master's in top-10 universities in the US. I have yet to hear from anyone that they felt in any way more challenged in the US (typically the opposite). Yes studying in t…

Same experience. I think despite the ranking, European universities are actually higher quality. American universities use too much student assistants. Too much of the teaching is hand holding and high school like. When I compare my dutch university experience with my American, it was more research oriented in the Netherlands. You learned to think more scientifically. In the US it felt like it was just about learning lots of stuff. Also the grading system in the US is a weak spot. It is usually far too easy to get an A in the US.

I've also have friends who have gone to top US universities, but who mainly can speak of the advantage being that, because they are big, they can offer more variation of course, but with respect to quality there was little difference.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#184

Post by jernfrost » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 11:44 AM UTC

Boothroid wrote: post #57

revelation wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Test your hypothesis then, look up tuition for the top 100 on that list and check if there is a clear gradient. Hint: there isn't.

Here's a test - ask a Chinese person thats in the market for a foreign degree to name a UK or US university they would like to attend, then ask them to name a German university that's on their list. I suspect they won't even be able to name a single German university, let alone consider studying at one. I went to a UK university that's in the global top 10. Asians I met after uni would often ask where I studied and h…

The Chinese are obsessed with status though, in all manners of life. They want their Gucci bags and an Ivy league degree. This only matters is a status obsessed society. If instead you care about enjoying your time and getting a good education, you would chose different.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#185

Post by louithethrid » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 11:47 AM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #179

captainmuon wrote: post #173

The thing is, the fees discussed in Germany ( ~1000€ / semester) are no where near covering the costs of a seat for one student. It's just a drop in the ocean, so they might as well keep it free. And when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners. I grew up in Germany, but don't have a German passport. Should I pay more? Where do you draw the line? I was studying whe…

> when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners German citizens subsidize this "free" university with their taxes. This includes low-level workers who have never visited a university. So essentially you are asking poor people in Germany to pay for the education of middle-class or rich people from other countries.

The poor dont pay much taxes in germany either. So its the middle class supporting a open world view. And i found it quite enriching. Sorry, that WYSIWYG doesent work with universitys, because you have by condition of usefullness not yet seen what you get and can only afterward value it apropriatly.

I love the german enducation system. In it great endavours may still be possible.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#186

Post by louithethrid » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 11:50 AM UTC

whack wrote: post #105

alpha_squared wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate). The only differences come down to network and academic…

There can be an "absolute sense" from a financial perspective. For better or worse, having a degree from Harvard/Stanford/MIT can open a number of doors that may be otherwise shut. Doors which can be very financially lucrative. For example, suppose you want to work in finance/law. Most prestigious firms place a very high premium on having a degree from a top university, and pay extremely generously if you get your fo…

TL,DR; The Universitys work as a bribe-able doorkeeper, and nobody gives anything about the education.

Why not bribe the companys you apply directly? Make a law degree for cheap and bribe a fellow with half a million? Cut out the middle man.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#187

Post by rdtsc » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 11:58 AM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #182

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the…

Wonder if they should have entrance exams to fix the issue? That might weed out the unqualified candidates.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#188

Post by yodsanklai » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 12:01 PM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #182

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the…

> All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries.

I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work. Besides, they contribute to the German economy by living there. And even if they leave, they'll keep a fond memory for Germany and I'm sure that will somehow have a positive impact.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#189

Post by fauigerzigerk » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 12:06 PM UTC

sparkling wrote: post #179

captainmuon wrote: post #173

The thing is, the fees discussed in Germany ( ~1000€ / semester) are no where near covering the costs of a seat for one student. It's just a drop in the ocean, so they might as well keep it free. And when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners. I grew up in Germany, but don't have a German passport. Should I pay more? Where do you draw the line? I was studying whe…

> when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners German citizens subsidize this "free" university with their taxes. This includes low-level workers who have never visited a university. So essentially you are asking poor people in Germany to pay for the education of middle-class or rich people from other countries.

And another country's tax payers have subsidized that student from preschool through primary and secondary education.

Also, the implication of your argument is that graduate immigrants should get a tax break because tax payers never had to subsidize their degree.

Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

#190

Post by yodsanklai » Sun, Apr 30, 2017, 12:13 PM UTC

kough wrote: post #100

ilamont wrote: post #84

For a point of comparison, the annual tuition prices for colleges in Massachusetts: http://www.collegecalc.org/lists/massachusetts/most-affordab... Tufts, BC, BU, Olin, MIT, Northeastern, Brandeis all between 45k and 50k. Harvard 41k. When room, board, and books are factored in it's a quarter million dollars over four years. Public colleges (Umass) are a lot cheaper but I've heard "fees" can run up to 10K a semester.…

Some of those schools are unlike the others. It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest. And the average college that Americans experience is a 2 year community college; very, very few attend schools of the caliber you're mentioning. It makes no sense to lump all these different schools together w…

> It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree,

I'm not so familiar with the American system, but aren't there prestigious schools that would accept bright students for free? In France for instance, the most selective engineer schools are free (or sometimes pay their students) and they enjoy the same careers than their American counterparts. Somehow, it sounds counterintuitive that you have to pay anything if you're extremely bright!