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How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

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Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#181

Post by ScottBurson »

cookiecaper wrote: post #174
amyjess wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that teen suicides in Utah are up. Way up. As in it's tripled in the past decade. And one of the factors is the Mormon church's notorious hostility towards LGBT youth: http://kutv.com/news/local/is-utahs-youth-suicide-rate-linke... Utah has the 5th highest teen suicide rate in the country: https://www.equalityutah.org/issues/lgbt-youth More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/is-the-recent-r... http:…

As far as churches go, the Mormon church does not have "notorious hostility" toward LGBT persons, and does everything it can to give hope to youth who feel they may be part of that group. It is true that Mormons maintain a doctrine that forbids homosexual behavior. Other than giving that up, they've done everything they can to be welcoming and accepting of gay people, regularly encouraging members to be civil, kind,…

Well, maybe things are in the process of changing, but gay Mormons will not feel completely comfortable until the doctrine forbidding homosexual behavior is consigned to the dustbin of history. You can't say that the behavior is forbidden without having some residue of the belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and that residue has impact on people no matter how much you paper over it by trying to be "warm and non-judgmental".

From the FAQ accessible via your link: Identifying as gay may mean you experience same-sex attraction but choose not to act on these feelings.

Yes, and it might also mean that you experience same-sex attraction which is returned and which you choose to act on gleefully! This page is trying to sound non-judgmental, but it shows its true feelings when it says things like this, without allowing for the obvious alternative. And if you think the subtext isn't heard, guess again!

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#182

Post by kelukelugames »

BurningFrog wrote: post #76
arconis987 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up Mormon in Utah and I love the Mormons in my life. Every leader in local congregations is an unpaid volunteer. Everyone in the congregation has a responsibility to carry out in the community (sunday school teacher, youth mentor, clerk to track finances, etc). As a Mormon kid, I was taught to work hard my whole life for the good of others. I served a Mormon mission in Europe, which was an extremely difficult…

I always wonder about the Mormon missionaries. Did you actually convert anyone? Or is that not even the point?

Yes, and a lot of them take wives from whichever foreign land they were in too. Part of the plan to grow the religion.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#183

Post by mythrwy »

cookiecaper wrote: post #174
amyjess wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that teen suicides in Utah are up. Way up. As in it's tripled in the past decade. And one of the factors is the Mormon church's notorious hostility towards LGBT youth: http://kutv.com/news/local/is-utahs-youth-suicide-rate-linke... Utah has the 5th highest teen suicide rate in the country: https://www.equalityutah.org/issues/lgbt-youth More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/is-the-recent-r... http:…

As far as churches go, the Mormon church does not have "notorious hostility" toward LGBT persons, and does everything it can to give hope to youth who feel they may be part of that group. It is true that Mormons maintain a doctrine that forbids homosexual behavior. Other than giving that up, they've done everything they can to be welcoming and accepting of gay people, regularly encouraging members to be civil, kind,…

So a gay couple is OK now as long as they don't actually do anything... gay? This must be new.

I guess Evergreen is done with then?

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#184

Post by innocentoldguy »

I live in Utah, and there are many reasons as to why breaking out of poverty is easier here than other parts of the country. I just want to mention one though: The Mormon church is a huge power in welfare in this state, and while they do focus on feeding, clothing, and housing the poor, their welfare program really pushes self-reliance, education, and breaking the cycle of poverty in people's lives. They spend a lot of money to train people with marketable skills, and they give interest-free education loans to their members, in poverty-stricken countries, in an effort to help elevate the conditions and opportunities in those countries. As part of the help they give, they encourage people to donate and volunteer themselves, to help others in need, as they break out of poverty themselves.

A lot of people complain about the Mormon church, over a variety of issues, but this is one thing they do incredibly well, I think.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#185

Post by dorian-graph »

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

> The Mormons try harder to keep on the straight and narrow because their religion is less authentic

What you're saying goes against the premise of the church—it being the ancient religion that was lost, and then restored, hence ".. in latter days". In fact, this pattern is common throughout scripture (Bible, Book of Mormon, etc.) where the people fall into what's called apostasy, things are lost, and then it's returned again.

Someone else has already commented on your line about the absurdity, otherwise I would've said something similar.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#186

Post by dorian-graph »

austenallred wrote: post #169
redsummer wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not to compensate, but to validate. You would never feel compelled to act in a certain way because the sky is blue, or because water is wet. But if you have a political or religious belief, however absurd, you feel a compulsion to act.

I don't see why that's a more logical conclusion than "I believe God wants me to do x therefore I do x"

You're missing a fundamental part so I'll add it in, but even so, it's still incredibly simplified so as to push a certain derogatory view.

"I believe God wants me to do x because y therefore I do x because y and/or z"

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#187

Post by redsummer »

mythrwy wrote: post #180
redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

To be fair PT Barnum types from thousands of years ago should be no more believable than PT Barnum types from 150 years ago.

True, but history produces a variety of personalities so a longer established religion will be more rounded. Schools of thought will generate opposing schools of thought etc. Like if you throw a tennis ball hard into a circular room it will end up going pretty much everywhere.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#188

Post by [deleted] »

redsummer wrote: post #131

Utah is more like what the US used to be like. Demographically, it's like early 60s America. Whiter, higher social trust, more Christian, neighborly, higher work ethic, higher rates of marriage, more kids, fewer illegitimate kids, no grievance industry etc. Many of these factors are looked down on by people of a certain political outlook. Seen as regressive. And yet they're happier in Utah. The Mormons try harder to…

[deleted]

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#189

Post by thomastjeffery »

itchyjunk wrote: post #34
thedevil wrote: post #31

I'm from Utah. I moved to Seattle, then San Francisco. When I had a kid, I moved back to Utah. One thing I noticed is that Utah is almost all middle class. Some have more money, some have less, but most of them are middle class. It's relatively easy to go from poor to rich if you're really middle class. I mean that if your parents are well educated but a high school teacher and a stay-at-home-mom in a middle class ne…

Maybe that is true for SLC. But how would you explain the million dollar houses and mansions in Park City, Provo etc without upper class? I see kids driving brand new cars and trucks that their parents bought to the SLC community college as well. My parents told me to use the bus.

It's only relatively true.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#190

Post by trcollinson »

ScottBurson wrote: post #181
cookiecaper wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as churches go, the Mormon church does not have "notorious hostility" toward LGBT persons, and does everything it can to give hope to youth who feel they may be part of that group. It is true that Mormons maintain a doctrine that forbids homosexual behavior. Other than giving that up, they've done everything they can to be welcoming and accepting of gay people, regularly encouraging members to be civil, kind,…

Well, maybe things are in the process of changing, but gay Mormons will not feel completely comfortable until the doctrine forbidding homosexual behavior is consigned to the dustbin of history. You can't say that the behavior is forbidden without having some residue of the belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and that residue has impact on people no matter how much you paper over it by trying to be "warm a…

Mormons also believe that any sexual relations outside of a legal, heterosexual marriage are a sin. I believe in this doctrine. I had many friends who found this doctrine hard to live by between that wanted to act on opposite-sex attraction with glee! I also found this doctrine REALLY hard. I wanted, really wanted, to act with some glee on some people I was attracted to and who were attracted to me. But I didn't. I dated, I got married, and now I have a happy marriage and family.

Would I have been judged? Maybe. Did I have fear of judgement? Maybe. I do know I felt there was a benefit to following this doctrine of celibacy and marriage. Did I judge my friends who didn't follow this? No I did not. Did they feel judged? Possibly, you'd have to ask them. I do know a number of them wish they had followed this doctrine when they did not in the past.

My point is, beliefs by their very nature can make people feel uncomfortable. Beliefs by their very nature can be very hard to live by. Should we remove them all? Where do we draw the line?

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