Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#181

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 9:49 PM UTC

pharrington wrote: post #148

PKop wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why getting downvoted. To dismiss out of hand thousands of years of evolution and think the last 50+ years of modern societal change can completely counteract biological forces is.. wishful thinking? I mean, this explanation is at least as good as any other speculation in this thread.

I did not downvote the parent. My claim: almost every human adult has had at least one sexual partner. I can only find decent studies surveying modernity, but for example: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/19374216/ . Assuming most humans having sex is not a recent development, any evolutionary pressures, if they exist at all, on the sexually active population are unclear at best; however, there may be pressures against the…

Your claim might be false.

"After a study by the National Institute of Population and Social Security Research last year found a massive increase in the number of virgins in [Japan], some academics criticised the way the research was reported.

Of 5,000 single people surveyed, the government department found 42 per cent of men and 44 per cent of women had never had sex."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japan-couples-s...

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#182

Post by lnanek2 » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 9:50 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #109

tornadoboy55 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're really not. What's true is the experiences that led you to feel the way you do and the fact that you feel that way. But I didn't name a single experience or anecdote. These are all googleable facts..

Facts are data points. There are infinitely many, and they don't select themselves. Humans do that. You could as easily construct an opposite generality by picking different facts. The energy behind comments like this isn't intellectual curiosity. It's pain left over from painful experiences. That's important, maybe more important than intellectual curiosity. Almost certainly more important. But we don't get anywhere…

So anyone with a painful experience is not allowed to participate in discussion? Are you going to ban rape victims from working to improve handling for rape cases next? You aren't even approaching these people from a neutral position and evaluating their data honestly, so if anyone should be disqualified from commenting, I think it is you at this point.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#183

Post by madez » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #134

pm90 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now...if society is breaking in a way that it's tough for men to get good jobs, then let's look at that. Women aren't to blame for that, though. Let's look at what's really going on. I don't think the comments in this section suggested blaming women for reducing men's partipation in the workforce. Specifically, the comment's OP seems to be suggesting that while the economic tables have changed, socially it is still…

What I was responding to was this: "women might need to make a compromise." Nope, if women are happy, then good for them, they certainly don't need to make a compromise. They don't owe men anything .

The modal verb "to need" is highly depend on the context.

You might have seen it in a different context than the author. While you may have interpreted it as saying that if women don't compromise, then they are bad, the author could have meant that if women don't compromise, then (the population will decrease/whatever else that might make sense).

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#184

Post by pharrington » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 10:18 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #181

pharrington wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not downvote the parent. My claim: almost every human adult has had at least one sexual partner. I can only find decent studies surveying modernity, but for example: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/19374216/ . Assuming most humans having sex is not a recent development, any evolutionary pressures, if they exist at all, on the sexually active population are unclear at best; however, there may be pressures against the…

Your claim might be false. " After a study by the National Institute of Population and Social Security Research last year found a massive increase in the number of virgins in [Japan], some academics criticised the way the research was reported. Of 5,000 single people surveyed, the government department found 42 per cent of men and 44 per cent of women had never had sex. " http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/…

My views of Japan's sexuality mostly align with those in that article. It talks about the recent trend of many Japanese not having sex (I claim that historically, most humans in general do have sex); furthermore, it claims a likely significant cause is the extreme pressures needed to maintain social status. It does quote a man citing similar trends in Britain; strange again, considering that at least as of 2014, studies show Britain having about a 4% virginity rate. Japan seems to be an outlier whose culture is resulting in a collapse of sexuality. Can you extrapolate evolutionary selection pressures from this?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#185

Post by oh_sigh » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 10:20 PM UTC

bobbytherobot wrote: post #137

oh_sigh wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They most certainly are not being kept out of those jobs. What about college graduation rates? New college grads are heavily biased in favor of women, and women earn more money than male counterparts on average(until some decide to take off in their career to have/raise kids).

My point was simply that men with credentials for a job aren't being rejected solely because they are a man. A few decades ago, women were routinely rejected solely for being a woman.

Sure, but now we have a society which has swung the other way. Shouldn't college attendance rates be 50/50 by gender? Thats the conventional wisdom, at least when it's women who are getting the short end of the stick

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#186

Post by pharrington » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 10:26 PM UTC

77pt77 wrote: post #162

pharrington wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I replied to another commenter expressing your same view here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13798051 . My comment asserts your core view is inconsistent both with apparent human sexual activity and how evolutionary pressures work.

> Assuming most humans having sex is not a recent development, any evolutionary pressures... Here I think your assumption is factually wrong. DNA testing shows that it is relatively recent (very few thousands of years)

Can you link to some studies? I'm having trouble Google'ing for anything relevant :\

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#187

Post by pharrington » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 10:39 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #154

pharrington wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try making her laugh. Try listening to her. Be honest. Don't open by trying to fuck.# Yes, it's a skill that like any other, requires deliberate practice. The skill, however, is being a generally enjoyable person to be around. #(If it seems like the last point contradicts the honesty, don't go around making sex your goal. Most humans are horny, it ain't anything you really need to draw attention to .) edit: downvote…

> A known effect of attacking (without confronting the core of the problem), or suppressing, or dismissing parties expressing certain beliefs or engaging in particular behaviors is that the opposing party reaffirms their actions or beliefs. Two-way intelligent and earnest discussion makes both sides amenable to the reasonable positions of the other. The downvotes are here not because people disagree with you, but bec…

Meta (since it's too late to edit my original reply):

The sole fact that you commented compelled me to clarify my position and admit that I may indeed have misunderstood the original poster. That is why I am so insistent on actual discussion. My original reaction was, "these people aren't using their words to address mine? Clearly they can't even use their words, so they must be wrong and I must be right." Obviously that reaction isn't rational in this case, but I don't really know what to do about it yet other than to always try to provoke earnest debate.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#188

Post by ikeyany » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 10:46 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #112

J-dawg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do when there simply aren't enough jobs for most men to "have their shit together"? What are all those men going to do when they have both no stake in the economy, and little or no chance of finding a woman to love them? What percentage of men like this can society handle before some sort of tipping point is reached? I refer you to this comment from "wingless" from another discussion currently on the f…

> A woman is working for the money and whatever satisfaction she derives from the job itself. A man is working for his ability to attract a girlfriend, his status in society, his entire sense of "value". It's hardly surprising that men are motivated to choose riskier and higher earning careers. I don't mean to go all PC police on you, especially since I agree with the first part of your comment, but this is most cert…

He is saying that women don't need careers to increase their status, but men do. It's more or less implying that women gain value in American society from their looks, rather than their contributions to society.

Is it sexist? Is it true? Is it a different story in China?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#189

Post by pharrington » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 10:52 PM UTC

dukeluke wrote: post #173

PKop wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why getting downvoted. To dismiss out of hand thousands of years of evolution and think the last 50+ years of modern societal change can completely counteract biological forces is.. wishful thinking? I mean, this explanation is at least as good as any other speculation in this thread.

Many people who fight for social equality between the sexes also believe that all psychological differences between the sexes are cultural, not biological. The post above directly opposes that viewpoint, and thus got downvoted. Personally, I don't agree with their belief. We can acknowledge differences between the sexes, yet maintain equal opportunity for those who want to oppose the norm.

"All psychological differences between the sexes are cultural, not biological" is obviously not a reasonable view. The view you need to address is that current, rigorous psychology has yet to advance to the point where it can quantify the innate psychological differences between the sexes; further, culture is a highly confounding factor that we don't yet know how to isolate in regards to sexuality.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#190

Post by thrownblown » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 11:22 PM UTC

tonyarkles wrote: post #172

thrownblown wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my marriage, I bring home the bacon with a small SaaS and the wife is in graduate school. We split the raising of our child 50-50. I like it just fine. She doesn't. She's admittedly jealous of how much time I spend with my son, she resents having to continue on her career path and not being able to be a stay-t-home mom. She doesn't understand why I would rather raise my son than work a real programming job. We are…

Sorry to hear about your divorce. And I know it's painful and you may not want to talk about it, but something stuck out at me, and if you'd like to elaborate I'd be very interested in hearing more: > she resents having to continue on her career path and not being able to be a stay-t-home mom If you're already covering the majority of the household income with the SaaS while your wife is in grad school... why does sh…

I don't make that much money, but I only work 3 days a week.

We are comfortable but we don't own a car and we rent. She wants to buy a house, I want to build an earthship.

I get a lot out of being my own boss and learning new things and adding features to my SaaS, and the value inherent in entrepreneurship and building a business. My wife shares none of that, but does share the anxiety, instability and risk of self-employment.