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Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

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Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#131
post #110
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do when there simply aren't enough jobs for most men to "have their shit together"? What are all those men going to do when they have both no stake in the economy, and little or no chance of finding a woman to love them? What percentage of men like this can society handle before some sort of tipping point is reached? I refer you to this comment from "wingless" from another discussion currently on the f…

What I'd do is this: 1) Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie, not just systems maintainers like Hillary, or rich guys who want to rip us off, like the guy who won. (And really work at a local level to enact structural systems changes!) 2) Work to change the cultural baggage around one's value being tied to one's day job. Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer,…

I know this will sound pretty bad...

but I actually interact a lot, in a volunteer capacity, with the black community where I live. I'm just realizing that I've never noticed that the whole "men are worth something because of their career" thing there. I'm not passing relative value judgements or anything, but I do wonder if there is something sociologically about black american subculture that makes women look past all that???

I am not a woman. So I can only say what I see, (and there seems to be a lower tendency towards marriage in their community anyway). But from what I see... there are black female doctors with laid off garbagemen for instance. I see self employed business women with unemployed guys. (Generally laid off laborers.) I see a lot of really high ranking corporate vp or law firm type women with teachers/community organizer types. (That one happens a lot.) Couples like these constitute a sizable portion of what I would call the "black middle class" where I am. And of course, you have the regular couples that look like what we would call more traditional, with both parties working at the same level. But that doesn't happen NEARLY as often as you'd think, and the egalitarian pairings also don't seem to last as long as the high ranking female-low ranking male pairings. (Divorce-wise I mean.)

Here's the thing though... I can't actually recall ever coming across a couple where the man was "higher ranking" than the woman??? There are probably a few out there, but I don't come across them in my interactions.

I never thought about that until I read through this thread.

It would be interesting to look through some of these smaller communities to find out how they deal with what seems to be slowly happening in the larger society. Just throwing that out there because they seem to be further down the road towards this "jobless" economic system. The reasons may be really simple. ie - maybe they just have a different culture??? And that's fine. Or maybe it's that the pressures on women in certain american subcultures are different??? Or whatever??? Who knows??? As I said... I'm not a woman... but I think it would be worth looking at.

The more I think about it... the more differences there are popping into my mind right now. It really is fascinating. I never stopped to think about it before.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#132
post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

> now that the tables have turned, women might need to make a compromise

Most of us here on HN work in the tech industry, with its notorious sexism and underrepresentation problems. So let's get real here.

To claim that the tables have turned reeks of the same claim to victimhood that the straight white christian men that voted for Trump use to justify their crap.

You claim you don't want to right the "whole mensright bandwagon", but you're already on it.

The tables aren't even close to having been turned, the disappearance of many jobs that men continued to claim for themselves until they stopped existing is just a coincidence.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#133
post #80
post #10

"... or the wife works while the man take care of kids" Then wifey starts seeing hubby as a sexless entity --- sort of like the son she never gave birth to --- and loses attraction for him. "... it isn't a gender thing. It is a money thing" Humans spent millennia as hunter-gatherers. Men hunted, women gathered. Men protected and provided, women nurtured the children. If women provide and protection is provided by the…

Hey, if your wife sees you as a sexless entity, that sounds like something personal. Like maybe you need to find a way to be sexy for her. Turning that into a generalization about men being emasculated because women have careers now, man that's just not accurate. It's blaming women for something that's their fault or responsibility.

I think you're partly right, but also, women are attracted to high-performing, financially established men. The opposite could true as well, but generally* women don't want to settle while men are willing to do so. So majority of men are branded undesirable, but only a minority of women.

For you as a random guy, this is pretty simple: you don't have a good job? bye.

*according to some research I don't know where to look for and anecdotal evidence

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#134
post #104
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this, a thousand times this. People look at stuff like alimony or whatever and think "oh women just get all the breaks". When really, stuff like that exists because women were expected to forego career for marriage, etc., essentially shackled to a man for life. Women being independent, expecting a guy to have his shit together? I think that's great. I say bring it on. Independent women are far more interesting t…

> Now...if society is breaking in a way that it's tough for men to get good jobs, then let's look at that. Women aren't to blame for that, though. Let's look at what's really going on. I don't think the comments in this section suggested blaming women for reducing men's partipation in the workforce. Specifically, the comment's OP seems to be suggesting that while the economic tables have changed, socially it is still…

What I was responding to was this: "women might need to make a compromise."

Nope, if women are happy, then good for them, they certainly don't need to make a compromise. They don't owe men anything.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#135
post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

> some treatment

Can I ask what this refers to? SSRI?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One generation behind us, women still sort of relied on men, and now that the tables have turned, women might need to make a compromise. You mean the system was heavily stacked to make women reliant on men. I won't call that a compromise. The tables haven't turned, the game changed. We have drastically removed many of the forces meant to keep women as dependents of men. If the tables had turned, then men would be s…

>If the tables had turned, then men would be systematically be kept out of jobs, particularly high paying careers. hundreds of thousands of men that we have imprisoned, thousands of men with mental health issues and drug addictions. men that took a wrong turn in life and ended up homeless, destitute or in the prison. These men have been systematically kept out of jobs. There has to be special kind of hypocrisy in act…

Those are all fair points. My point wasn't that any man can simply roll up and get the high paying job and it's never been the case. Many men would have been rejected just based on the color of their skin or because they had a Jewish last name.

By and large, men aren't being denied access to an interview simply based on their gender. If we go back a few decades, women were denied access to an interview simply based on their gender.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One generation behind us, women still sort of relied on men, and now that the tables have turned, women might need to make a compromise. You mean the system was heavily stacked to make women reliant on men. I won't call that a compromise. The tables haven't turned, the game changed. We have drastically removed many of the forces meant to keep women as dependents of men. If the tables had turned, then men would be s…

> They most certainly are not being kept out of those jobs. What about college graduation rates? New college grads are heavily biased in favor of women, and women earn more money than male counterparts on average(until some decide to take off in their career to have/raise kids).

My point was simply that men with credentials for a job aren't being rejected solely because they are a man. A few decades ago, women were routinely rejected solely for being a woman.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#138
post #62
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think location may be part of the problem, I think it's a relatively small problem. IMHO, the biggest part of the problem is that many of these people are not employable, and due to having an enabler, are not motivated to become employable. There are lots of places in the Rust Belt looking for people to hire, but they need people who will show up clean and sober who will also do the work. These low requiremen…

Very true. It's definitely now a situation where we are dealing with the fallout from years of not dealing with the problem. Yea I recently read a story where a factory tried to hire around 50 people and could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests. I was actually fairly surprised to hear that. So yea now we are dealing with the problem that has been festering and getting worse for years…

Yea I recently read a story where a factory tried to hire around 50 people and could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests.

Maybe the problem is whatever stupidity requires/incentivizes employers to police what "their" employees do when not at work?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#139
post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

Dove anyone have real data on what's nature vs. nurture? So many people make arguments on this important topic that depend on huge assumptions. For example someone below said women won't mind dating men with less status once our culture evolves. Are we so sure of that? This is not a criticism of females. I doubt any gender can be cultured out preference for physical attributes. We can support equal rights and still a…

>I doubt any gender can be cultured out preference for physical attributes.

These are evolutionary traits and will most likely not change at least at the time scale of a few generations.

>We can support equal rights and still acknowledge innate differences right?

That's the idea. Law and human rights are deeply "contra natura" by definition.

Ignoring nature to the extent we are doing as a species will not end well as far as having a just society.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#140
post #97
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not like you can sit at a public library's computer all day. You get timed about an hour a session and can only do three sessions a day and of course, if it there's a wait list, you have to wait. Also, many libraries nowadays have been turned into "after school" centers where there's a whole load of talking on the kids section of the library. There is a "quiet" zone, but people still whisper and really just straight…

State university libraries are generally open to any resident of that state, student or not. Private universities might not be.

I suppose, generally, but I go to a state university, you do need to swipe your active student ID card to enter the library through a turnstile. I've also attended many hackathons at other unis where turnstiles exist as well and you can't enter unless you're a student there.

I mostly remember because of the pain it was to get clearance from security at those unis to be able to get out of the hackathon (at their libraries) and get back in; had to leave ID and take my visitor badge with me.

I'm sure many state unis are open to residents of that state, but I know not all. To be honest, I prefer it to be that way for the same reason "actual" public libraries just aren't conducive for actually studying something that takes a lot concentration.

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