Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

recode.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 371 posts

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#181

Post by MegaButts »

grandalf wrote: post #176
MegaButts wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I can't find the source for it now, but during Instacart's last fundraising round they did some really weird stuff. For starters, the investors were only allowed to view their financials in a printed book in a room, and were not allowed to take pictures or write anything down to mull it over and make a decision. Apart from that, you have to understand that there are a lot of investors, and if you can convin…

> But the problem is they get traction by operating at a loss, so when they try to run profitably they inevitably fail as people bawk at the prices. Well, in a competitive environment like Uber vs Lyft, both companies subsidize the service to the benefit of the customers (and employees) in an attempt to maximize market share. There is a lot to gain by becoming the market leader in a service like ride sharing or groce…

You clearly like Instacart, and that's fine, but I strongly disagree with you that they've built something better than the grocery store. For starters, right now they depend on grocery stores existing for their business, otherwise they are exactly like WebVan. Also, grocery shopping is nothing like postal delivery. You don't choose what mail you want, you just take everything that's addressed to you. Obviously this varies from person to person, but some people actually like choosing their ingredients and meals and deciding what they want to eat - the opposite extreme for this is to buy Soylent. Every time I've used Instacart they've made annoying substitutions that cost me money and weren't what I wanted, and the hassle of explaining item for item substitutions with back and forth texts is just frustrating. I've only used it a few times, but I've never had a pleasant experience with Instacart where I got everything I wanted - and this is ignoring the added cost and "convenience" of using their service.

> There is a lot to gain by becoming the market leader in a service like ride sharing or grocery shopping.

There is no evidence of this. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that these companies are losing money.

> All these are obvious next steps for Instacart, which wisely sees Grocery stores as a relic of the past ready to be replaced by something better.

Just because you don't like grocery stores doesn't mean they're going to disappear.

Honestly, you sound like a shill paid by Instacart, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just really like their product.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#183

Post by brokenmasonjars »

grandalf wrote: post #178
brokenmasonjars wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who live in the suburbs without cars. I live in the suburbs with multiple cars. That said I would love if a service (ideally for grocery and restaurant delivery) was in my area. I just don't feel like dealing with rush hour; or the time it takes to grocery shop. I have tried taskrabbit and hiring someone off craigslist. I had better luck with craigslist (for grocery shopping), yet then all sorts of legalitie…

Download the app, Instacart might be there. I know it's in a lot of the Chicago suburbs.

eh I've checked all the ones I know of; postmates, amazon, instacart, caviar for restaurants etc etc.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#184

Post by nickez »

Kiro wrote: post #182

Coming from a place where tipping is nonexistent this whole debate feels extremely ancient. I don't understand why a modern country won't just kill off tipping culture.

This is great for everyone! Hopefully they will get a higher salary and I guess the company will pay more in taxes and social benefits (or whatever it is called in English). I don't get how tipping can be legal, or do you actually pay taxes on tips in the US?

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#185

Post by marknutter »

vinceguidry wrote: post #166
jquery wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> outrage will be generated and justice will be served. Trump is the personification of the outrage over illegal immigration, crime, bad trade deals, and the Neocon (globalist) wing of the Republican party. > liberal Americans trusted the system enough to stop looking to see how it was being used Umm, what? For over a year, liberal Americans were aghast at the rise of Literally Hitler and made no bones about sharing…

> Trump is the personification of the outrage over illegal immigration, crime, bad trade deals, and the Neocon (globalist) wing of the Republican party. Exactly, it's the system working for the other side of the country. They didn't have nearly as good of a grassroots outreach mechanism, they finally built one. The two sides cannot agree on what justice means. That's ultimately a national question and so it had to be…

I'm curious as to why you think the world is moving towards liberalism.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#186

Post by grandalf »

MegaButts wrote: post #181
grandalf wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the problem is they get traction by operating at a loss, so when they try to run profitably they inevitably fail as people bawk at the prices. Well, in a competitive environment like Uber vs Lyft, both companies subsidize the service to the benefit of the customers (and employees) in an attempt to maximize market share. There is a lot to gain by becoming the market leader in a service like ride sharing or groce…

You clearly like Instacart, and that's fine, but I strongly disagree with you that they've built something better than the grocery store. For starters, right now they depend on grocery stores existing for their business, otherwise they are exactly like WebVan. Also, grocery shopping is nothing like postal delivery. You don't choose what mail you want, you just take everything that's addressed to you. Obviously this v…

Hah. I wish I were getting paid to do this.

Maybe I do particularly dislike grocery shopping. Everywhere I've lived it's been a real drag:

Midwest: In the store with lowest prices you spend half your time shopping and half waiting to get through checkout. Whole Foods is pleasant but overpriced. Mariano's is somewhere in the middle.

NYC: Great small boutique grocery stores, much more expensive than Whole Foods, unbearably crowded at peak times, packed full of customers who are tripping over each other. Employees look ready to burst from the stress at any moment. Lower-end stores stock a very small number of items and are also overpriced. Not all neighborhoods have walking access to a larger, higher quality store like Whole Foods.

SF: Whole Foods is a zoo and is undersized and frequently sold out. Safeway lacks many of the higher quality items but only offers paper bags which are a nightmare to carry if you walked. Safeway delivers but the quality of service is poor, and you are guaranteed to get the produce they had to get rid of that day. Parking to shop at any of these is a unique nightmare.

I don't think I'm alone in not enjoying most of these experiences, or at least preferring to avoid them most of the time.

Instacart may be losing money (who knows) but likely has ample room to increase prices. Uber and Lyft are both burning money and nobody cares.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#187

Post by navs »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #180
lostlogin wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part for me - places here in NZ are trying to introduce it. I've solved it by not going back, that that doesn't work if the practice spreads.

I also live in NZ. I've seen a few places prompt for tips but typically only in areas tourists frequent. I always just tip nothing. I'm pretty sure they are just doing it to bait Americans.

Curious, I live in Auckland and haven't seen mention of tips except in 'hipster' cafes and I rarely see gold coins or notes. I wonder if it's less about baiting Americans and more about emulating Americans.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#188

Post by bluejekyll »

pshposh wrote: post #174
bluejekyll wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved Kozmo. I used them at least once a week; I still miss them.

What kinds of things did you use them for and what was the cost? If you don't mind me asking.

Literally anything... In San Francisco, if I remember correctly, they delivered within like 20 minutes. It was basically an online convenience store. At the time I was working really strenuous hours at a startup (that sadly followed Kozmo), so getting basic things that you'd normally run to a corner store for. Batteries, junk food, movies... if a bike messenger could carry it, they delivered it.

It was awesome... funnily though, I don't use any of the other delivery services now; can't explain that.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#189

Post by grandalf »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #107
tyre wrote: post #8

They have tens of thousands of customers, yet are worth multiple billions of dollars (valued at $2bn in 2015.) That's just incredible. Let's say they have 100k customers who each use the service every week. That's 5.2m orders per year. Let's say $100 per order, to be generous. At a 10% service fee, that's $50m for a two-year-old 40x revenue multiple. Before paying their contracted workforce. This does not make sense.…

Regardless of how you calculate the valuation this is bad for business. People don't like companies being disingenuous, and not realizing that treating employees fairly is actually an important part of building a healthy company (putting aside it's the right thing to do). If they really needed to do this then don't play games. Just explain that revenue growth can make or break a company at this stage so we need to ta…

I agree that companies like Uber and Instacart should be doing a lot more to foster employee loyalty.

Who knows, maybe the future of these semi-infrastructure businesses is actually as co-ops, with workers earning a stake that can be worth more in the long term.

I'd like to see one of these companies create a special class of stock and award one unit for every dollar of business each employee participates in.

Re: Instacart is playing games with its workers’ pay

#190

Post by grandalf »

jasonpeacock wrote: post #123

I'm an avid Instacart user, and I refuse to pay the service fee, nor the tip. Companies need to pay the drivers fair wages, and charge the customers enough to do so. Don't push that responsibility to the customer. Also, the service fee is perfect example of a Dark Pattern[1]. The actual service fee option (which is pre-selected at 10%) is hidden below the fold in the iPad app (and iOS?) checkout widgets. You have to…

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't tip and tries to avoid the service fee. The problem is that often most of the desirable delivery times disappear unless you've opted to pay the fee.

I agree these are dark patterns. Better to just keep the transaction obvious and clean and leave out tip shaming of any kind.

Post reply on HN