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We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

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Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#181

Post by codexon »

seabee wrote: post #179
codexon wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what I said, please to be not putting words in my mouth? kthx. You are trying to one-up illumin8 to support your argument that sweatshop labor was good. This is the gist of your argument: Your parents suffered even more and said it was great, so illumin8's argument is invalid. Straw man - "sweatshop" labor produces a whole lot more than mere trinkets and souvenirs - they are, in this case, producing valuab…

We can live without many things, but that's irrelevant if we still choose to consume them. Perhaps ethically they have no value but they sure have financial value, that's why they're being produced and sold, then bought by us. We give them their income.

I don't choose to consume them.

Many people choose to consume them because they are manipulated by advertisement and unreasonable societal norms. If the wage of these workers were doubled, no one in the US would notice. Do you really scrutinize $0.20 on a $30.00 mouse?

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#182

Post by SapphireSun »

foldr wrote: post #163
jxcole wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) "they are rather expensive" - They are getting cheaper 2) "for tasks that don't require any human brain activity" - Does taking a rubber gel cap from one place and sticking into the bottom of a mouse assembly really require brain activity? That is what the star factory worker in this article was doing. 3) "they're not exactly popular amongst manual labourers" - If the point of robots is to get rid of manual labore…

>Does taking a rubber gel cap from one place and sticking into the bottom of a mouse assembly really require brain activity? Yes, a ton. Picking something up and putting it in the right location is actually a pretty tough AI problem, in the more difficult cases.

you guys are thinking of multi-jointed arms. Simplify! Just make it so that all the things line up within some tolerance as they roll down the line and you're golden.

Also, removing manual labor jobs means that there is an available labor pool for something more productive that the robots CAN'T do. Broken glass fallacy anyone?

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#183

Post by dhume »

potatolicious wrote: post #35
lutorm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Privileged white collars shocked and dismayed that blue collar work can really, really suck. News at 11." Your comment made me think: Privileged white collar shows complete disregard for those that have it worse. News at 11.

Despite what you might think, I'm no Ayn Rand-quoting objectivist ;) What I do think is that this article makes much ado about nothing - sweatshop labor permitted my parents' generation to pull themselves out of poverty, get educated, and get white collar jobs - in fact my mother and all of her siblings eventually all got white collar, comfortable desk jobs. What we're looking at is a country in a natural evolutionar…

sweatshop labor permitted my parents' generation to pull themselves out of poverty, get educated, and get white collar jobs

I think what irritates people is that you say this as though non-sweatshop labor cannot offer this sort of improvement. Lots of countries have the possibility for upward mobility without sweatshop labor.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#184

Post by netcan »

dhume wrote: post #183
potatolicious wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite what you might think, I'm no Ayn Rand-quoting objectivist ;) What I do think is that this article makes much ado about nothing - sweatshop labor permitted my parents' generation to pull themselves out of poverty, get educated, and get white collar jobs - in fact my mother and all of her siblings eventually all got white collar, comfortable desk jobs. What we're looking at is a country in a natural evolutionar…

sweatshop labor permitted my parents' generation to pull themselves out of poverty, get educated, and get white collar jobs I think what irritates people is that you say this as though non-sweatshop labor cannot offer this sort of improvement. Lots of countries have the possibility for upward mobility without sweatshop labor.

That is a complete false choice. People work in sweatshops (or any crappy job) because better jobs aren't available.

The relevant question is: 'Will removing the sweatshop be better for the employee?' If you can say why removing the sweatshop will cause a better place of work to appear in it's stead, go ahead.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#185

Post by drinian »

potatolicious wrote: post #16

This article, IMHO, is written by someone who has no idea how things work just about anywhere that's not the industrialized West, and is shocked and appalled that things aren't as awesome as they are in the US of A. It's a also a reminder for those of us who live in such ridiculous comfort and freedom that it can get much, much worse. That being said, I think this article is sensationalist tripe: > "The idea that ‘wi…

Recently, I read an article about how soccer balls, most of which are made in a certain town in Pakistan, were no longer sewn by children, thanks to pressure from Adidas and other international firms. The children now work making bricks. There was a quote in the article from a local decrying this as a mistake, saying that the children were learning a trade to support them for life, by making soccer balls.

But, last I checked, China, Pakistan, et. al. have a massive unemployment problem. Now, there's two ways to solve this -- the first is to make more jobs, the approach we see here. The other would be to reduce the size of the labor pool through enforcement of child labor laws, limitations on number of hours worked per week, mandatory and free schooling through age 18, social security programs to encourage the elderly to retire, etc.

These reforms happened in the US and Europe a century ago, when most people were objectively poorer than the people in these articles -- no television, electricity, cell phones, etc. Depressingly, I have to speculate that there is a fundamental break in expectations in the national zeitgeist of these countries that allows things to get this bad.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#186

Post by Maktab »

abentspoon wrote: post #77
randrews wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the rules: > When the manager arranges overtime, employees are not allowed secretly or openly to avoid overtime if they do not have permission. Not exactly "voluntary" overtime.

> I know that I can choose not to work overtime, but if I don't work overtime, then I am stuck with only 770 RMB [$112.67 per month] in base wages. I'm not sure which to believe.

Perhaps the parent quote refers to people not being allowed to shirk overtime which they have already agreed to be there for. In other words, signing up to work four hours overtime, leaving after two and getting your friend to clock you out two hours later.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#187

Post by Zarkonnen »

wdewind wrote: post #134
zooey wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So,for example, if a family need money and they sell their young little girl as a prostitute, just to make money, you know, but in a country where the State is not so hard in fighting that behavior, the "buyer" should under no circumstances be held accountable for that Country's inability (or unwillingness) to regulate its economy? I think your point of view it's too simplistic and auto-absolving.

I think you are missing entirely the value of a cultural and societal system. The alternative to what is currently going on in China isn't a workers' paradise where everyone is happy with a middle class, 40 hour a week job. The alternative is a nation starving (Mao?). I think your view discounts the rubble that China has come out of and the place it is today entirely. I doubt many Chinese feel their parents were bett…

No, the alternative is that we stop making excuses for what we're doing and demand that the people who make our junk are paid a living wage. Yes, really.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#188

Post by wdewind »

Zarkonnen wrote: post #187
wdewind wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing entirely the value of a cultural and societal system. The alternative to what is currently going on in China isn't a workers' paradise where everyone is happy with a middle class, 40 hour a week job. The alternative is a nation starving (Mao?). I think your view discounts the rubble that China has come out of and the place it is today entirely. I doubt many Chinese feel their parents were bett…

No, the alternative is that we stop making excuses for what we're doing and demand that the people who make our junk are paid a living wage. Yes, really.

Talk about too simplistic.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#189

Post by petercooper »

codexon wrote: post #181
seabee wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can live without many things, but that's irrelevant if we still choose to consume them. Perhaps ethically they have no value but they sure have financial value, that's why they're being produced and sold, then bought by us. We give them their income.

I don't choose to consume them. Many people choose to consume them because they are manipulated by advertisement and unreasonable societal norms. If the wage of these workers were doubled, no one in the US would notice. Do you really scrutinize $0.20 on a $30.00 mouse?

And if you double everyone's wages, that will result in inflation which isn't going to seriously help their purchasing power.

Re: We are like prisoners... We do not have a life, only work.

#190

Post by dhume »

netcan wrote: post #184
dhume wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sweatshop labor permitted my parents' generation to pull themselves out of poverty, get educated, and get white collar jobs I think what irritates people is that you say this as though non-sweatshop labor cannot offer this sort of improvement. Lots of countries have the possibility for upward mobility without sweatshop labor.

That is a complete false choice. People work in sweatshops (or any crappy job) because better jobs aren't available. The relevant question is: 'Will removing the sweatshop be better for the employee?' If you can say why removing the sweatshop will cause a better place of work to appear in it's stead, go ahead.

The relevant question is: 'Will removing the sweatshop be better for the employee?'

Yes, this is the question we are losing track of.

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