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Never accept a counter-offer

vtorosyan.github.io

181–190 of 369 posts

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How did you get clients initially? He said it, contacts and social skills. One other way is referrals but you generally need to have a few clients before that starts happening.

> "contacts and social skills" I'm curious too, because that's what everyone says, but they stop there. It's always: 1. Have contacts and social skills 2. ??? 3. Make 6X as a freelancer! Let's say I'm starting with contacts and social skills. And a mortgage and a full-time job that lets me pay it. Any good books or blog posts that describe what's in step 2?

Just keep in contact with your network and make sure they're aware that you're freelancing and what sort of projects you do. I know it sounds simplistic, but the hard part is building a network. Once you have it, they do most of the work for you, especially if you keep them abreast and happy (ex. reciprocal referrals).

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#182
Five letters: BATNA

What is your best alternative to a negotiated agreement?

In any negotiation, with any party, your strength lies in your ability to walk away. If a vendor isn't offering you the product, or features, or price, you want, then having the alternative to walk elsewhere gives you strength. It's what lies at the foundation of the concept of a competitive market (though there are other elements as well, many involving information access).

Businesses, and recruiters, such as the one offering this exceptionally poor advice, have far more data, and far more experience than any given single worker in engaging in labour negotiations. Hell: It is their core competency.

Accepting the terms of an employer or recruiter in engaging in the battle directly is the worst possible thing you can do. Which includes this still-born advice to never accept a counteroffer.

Are there counteroffers you shouldn't accept? Yes. Are there counteroffers you should accept? Yes. You'll find discussion in this thread on both sets of circumstances.

(A general guideline: if it's the money that's been what's making you unhappy at a given job, go for it. If it's been other matters, that is what you should be negotiating on, though sweetening the pot doesn't hurt either.)

The degree of ignorance exhibited by far too many technologists on the concepts of negotiating, power, leverage, and advantage is vast. I include myself. I can only suggest: go out and start studying the literature, including Machiavelli, Hobbes, J.K. Galbraith's The Anatomy of Power, and books on sales and negotiation. I'm finding older works from the late 19th and early 20th centuries particularly informative -- there's much more openness about direct tactics, and a distinct lack of embarassment in discussing them. More recent material can be useful and will show additional tricks, and advances in psychology, but I find that the traditional insights themselves are quite telling.

Michael O. Church has much to say on the inequalities, including overt blacklists, which exist within Silicon Valley and elsewhere, which may be illuminating: https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2016/04/18/what-i-fough...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negoti...

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#183
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are only able to get more by threatening to quit, that sounds like a pretty miserable place to me.

Many people are afraid to ask for raises and default to looking for work elsewhere.

There is great political risk in requesting a raise. Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult, and for some reason, after you've gone to that substantial political risk, a lot of employers seem to think that their employees should be content with raises of 2-5%. If you do get a raise, the counteroffer issue is still valid; your employer is given cause to question your loyalty and may be more suspicious of your contributions moving forward. This sentiment has been expressed by MS CEO Satya Nadella and I'm sure it's popular in other management circles.

Ironically, it's generally less offensive as well as much more effective at getting a real increase in take-home pay to go out and get an offer from an external employer.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have the experience, contacts and social skills (very underestimated by many professionals in our field) you can make much more as a freelancer/contractor. I'm now self employed for 4 years and I earn 6x as much as I earned in my last job. (though I believe I was underpaid in my last job)

How does freelancing income compare to working as a senior engineer at a big corp ($300k total comp if you include bonuses, benefits and subsidized health insurance)?

In my experience they're pretty close, assuming you're excelling in both.

Top independent freelance software developers can make $300k if they work hard and have a good network, as can top big corp engineers. Of course, neither is easy to achieve and the metrics are different. (Freelancers are valued on their results, big corps hire on pedigree and games.)

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#185
post #18

Recruiter here, almost 20 years. Do a search for articles warning about counteroffers and you'll find almost all are written by agency recruiters. Why is that? It's because agency recruiters lose probably millions in fees every year when candidates accept a counter. I have personally lost 30K on a single fee due to counteroffer on more than one occasion. It hurts quite a bit - that's a car - which is why if you accep…

Wow. The source the author cites for his counteroffer statistic (http://thevetrecruiter.com/news/a-perfect-case-study-for-not...) includes this passage:

> Back to my candidate. Two days after he took the counter-offer, I received a call from one of his colleagues. She said word on the street was that one of her co-workers had recently accepted a counter-offer with her employer, and she wanted me to know she would never do that. If I represented her, once she gave a commitment, she would stick to it. Not only that, but she also said only a weak-minded person would do something like that (accept a counter-offer) and she had lost all respect for this person.

Can you imagine an actual human being calling up a recruiter completely unprompted to inform them that counteroffer-accepters are weak-minded jerks and no one likes them? It's like one of those ads where a bunch of guys suddenly interrupt their game of ultimate frisbee or whatever to discuss how great their car insurance company is.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#186

This couldn't have come at a better time, as I just navigated this last week. I kind of disagree with most of what the author is saying. Here's why. The author posits that you've begun looking for a new job for a reason. There are things that you dislike about your job. That's logical, and it's the number one reason that I went on a search of my own. The problem is that there's always some level of information asymme…

I agree that saying counter-offers are universally bad is too simplistic.

Sometimes your compensation simply has fallen behind market without you or your employer realizing it. Especially at a smaller company, your manager might very well not have firm sense of what your market compensation would be. A competing offer is a great way for both you and them to get your compensation up to market.

Just because you interviewed for another job does not imply you're unhappy with your current one. I try to occasionally interview just to keep a tab on the market, even when I'm entirely happy with my current job (including its compensation). In fact, the results of such interviews are often that my current job is better than anything else out there.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#187
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess plenty of people are in a situation where they're not miserable at the current company but they would like to get paid more.

If you are only able to get more by threatening to quit, that sounds like a pretty miserable place to me.

Not necessarily. In my case, I was one level too low in a strong organization. I had just done a geographic transfer and they hadn't quite slotted me into the kind of job that would have delivered all the good stuff (projects, recognition, pay, etc.) that I wanted. Plus I'd been assigned to a timid boss who wasn't going to make things change.

It was amazing how much everything improved once I had a higher-paying offer from a leading competitor. Boom! Better title. Boom, more money. Boom, a lot more face time with VP level folks who became my de facto bosses and boosters. I ended up staying at that place for another 13 years and had a great ride. My timid "boss" was gone from the organization within two years. The guy never caused me a bit of pain after that.

I'm glad other posters are saying that in the end, it's the agency recruiters who really hate counteroffers. The economics for them are so disastrous that they can't help but try to tug talented employees over to their point of view. From my experience, it all comes down to whether you can get your current employer to make your working situation a lot better, as well as bump up the money. If they are capable of delivering a whole new situation, then you're in a good place.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#188
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hear this, but where do you people work that this is the case? As some who has been on the other side of the table this was never how it worked. Losing a team member sucks. A counter offer is an attempt to avoid that. The idea that your boss would secretly interview your replacement before firing you just seems silly to me. At the most practical level doing something so cold hearted would send every other me…

> Losing a team member sucks. But being paid below market rate also sucks. By making a counter-offer and having it accepted, you're now setting a precedent. All of that person's peers will now see that the way to get a raise at this company is to constantly be interviewing and threatening to leave. Is that the environment you're trying to foster?

> But being paid below market rate also sucks.

Where is this mythical "market rate" that I as an employee or employer can constantly get access to?

Every employee has their own market rate and that rate is determined by BATNA negotiations. If I'm hiring someone, I don't have market rate for them in mind which I try to pay under.

As a manager at a small company, you barely have more info on market rates than employees do. Sometimes savvy employees even have more info than I do (they can go out an interview to assess the market, while I can't interview people just to see what offer they'd accept).

Of course, there are also cases of flagrant underpayment (ex. paying <$100k for an engineer in SV) which should drive you away automatically.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true though, isn't it? Another thing to consider: "Will you have to hold a gun to their head every year?" Interviewing is a pain, and I wouldn't want to have be doing it continuously in order to keep myself at market rate. Let's say (conservatively) you need to interview at an average of 20 companies to get an offer, and that it takes an average of 4 days to prep, conduct each interview, and follow-up. That's 80…

(1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) (2) If you're applying to similar jobs (in terms of skill) then a single amount of prep can be shared among many I know many who try to "get in the market" every year or so just for "curiosity"

> I know many who try to "get in the market" every year or so just for "curiosity"

There is absolutely no reason not to. One might argue this is essential -- how can you know "market" if you don't study the market?

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#190
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people are afraid to ask for raises and default to looking for work elsewhere.

There is great political risk in requesting a raise. Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult, and for some reason, after you've gone to that substantial political risk, a lot of employers seem to think that their employees should be content with raises of 2-5%. If you do get a raise, the counteroffer issue is still valid; your employer is given cause to question your loyalty and may be more suspic…

> Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult,

If they do, flee. Business is business and if people are getting offended about business, something is wrong.

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