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We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#181

Post by imh »

jbmorgado wrote: post #101
hharnisch wrote: post #62

This is interesting because it starts to peel another layer of the problem. Yes there are still cues that can give away gender, but this seems another step closer to making the interview process a science. The next logical question from here is "why are women more likely to quit after 1-2 bad interviews".

I don't think you understood the article. The conclusion is that there is no problem. This bias against woman in IT interviews people keep talking about, doesn't actually exist according to the study.

This misunderstanding is kind of the core breakdown in these conversations. People don't agree on what the problem is. Is the issue about equal pay, or about equal pay for equal work? In hiring terms, is it about equal hiring or equal hiring for equal ability?

If we don't have equal pay for equal work (and equivalent skill, etc), I think we can agree that's unfair and a problem. But if we do have equal pay for equal work, but still don't have equal pay, then I'd say we may still have a problem. Why aren't women making the same work decisions as men? If social pressure is keeping women from doing equal work, that's bad. If social pressure is forcing men to make shittier sacrifices for pay, that's bad. In the article linked, women churn more. That's probably bad.

If there's inequality without unequal pay or unequal hiring, then the problem isn't the fault of the firms, but it's still a problem.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#182

Post by dragonwriter »

Sephr wrote: post #163
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert, but isn't "let's just hire only women for a while to balance out the numbers" going to violate a whole bunch of employment regulations?

Affirmative action is not only legal, it's required in academia if a university wants federal funding. I'm not sure if minority genderbased- affirmative action is required, but minority race is definitely a requirement.

> Affirmative action is not only legal, it's required in academia if a university wants federal funding.

Yes, but what many people stereotype "affirmative action" as being, or at least including -- notably, including the upthread suggestion characterized as "let's just hire only women for a while to balance out the numbers" -- is not only not required even in that context, it is quite illegal (and would be equally illegal if, say, "blacks" replaced "women" in the description.)

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#183

Post by throwaway_xx9 »

MustardTiger wrote: post #106
AndreyErmakov wrote: post #41

So we all realize technical interviews serve no practical purpose and should be quietly abandoned, but instead of looking into the future and discovering better ways of identifying talent, people keep inventing stuff that makes the torturing mechanism even more sophisticated so that the suffering can be prolonged. I'd like to see the people behind this project apply their technical skills to something more useful to…

Why do people in tech think "proving you can do your job" is unique to tech? Tons of industrues has practical interviews. Do you really think a roofer shows up and says "I know what I am doing, just take me on my word" and gets a job?

Actually, yes. Having done roofing on residential properties, you stick an ad in the newspaper, show up with a truck, provide an estimate and wait for the phone call.

Nobody asks you to demonstrate that you can climb or hammer.

I'm curious. When a plumber shows up at your house, do you whiteboard him?

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#184

Post by grb423 »

Bartweiss wrote: post #88
rcpt wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surgery has a large gap to but I rarely hear it brought up in these discussions. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/ama-wire/post/medical-specialtie...

That's a particularly interesting one, because it's not susceptible to the usual charges of "no one cares because it's low pay/status". If you look to radiology rather than surgery, the gender imbalance is enormous. Suddenly we're looking at gender skew in two highly technical, prestigious, lucrative fields, and seeing that they prompt totally different types and amounts of discussion.

I worry about this mentioning occupations' "prestige." That seems to be incompatible with our goals of universal equality. We shouldn't discount gender bias because of privilege.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#185

Post by [deleted] »

onion2k wrote: post #168
xienze wrote: post #147

I honestly feel like this sort of thing is a waste of time. Let's pretend someone invents the perfect "gender bias-free" system: no names, no faces, voices are flawlessly transcribed on-the-fly so you can't pick up on speech patterns. What if it works perfectly and you still end up hiring more men than women? I think exercises like this may end up giving people answers they don't want to hear. So, stop wasting time w…

For some companies who believe an equal workplace should be 50% of each gender then you're right, but that doesn't make the system pointless. The idea of a "gender bias-free" hiring process isn't necessarily to make workplaces more equal or to promote diversity. The point is simply to remove a bias - to eliminate something that pushes you to hire someone who isn't the best candidate. Having a bias drives you to make…

[deleted]

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#186

Post by jean_claude »

aphextron wrote: post #107
Bartweiss wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a particularly interesting one, because it's not susceptible to the usual charges of "no one cares because it's low pay/status". If you look to radiology rather than surgery, the gender imbalance is enormous. Suddenly we're looking at gender skew in two highly technical, prestigious, lucrative fields, and seeing that they prompt totally different types and amounts of discussion.

It's almost as if men and women have some fundamental differences in psychology that affect their preferred choice of career.

Or perhaps many children are raised to conform to particular gender roles that affects their social development, and possibly, just possibly, this might also affect their job opportunities not just by self-selection, but by biases in the interviewer/hiring manager. It seems like a very complicated issue that doesn't have a simplistic answer.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#187

Post by stcredzero »

bduerst wrote: post #132
stcredzero wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were to start a company today, I'd definitely be tempted to only hire women, and pay my entire workforce 80 cents on the dollar, instead of 70 cents on the dollar. Except that correcting for experience, the pay gap shrinks to about 94 cents on the dollar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0EYBBl5LI I'm with John Green here: Much of the strong negative feeling around the gender pay gap comes from women as a whole…

This is deceptive because it's an opinion piece on Youtube. The BLS study that controlled for occupation, industry, part-time vs. full-time, education levels, and other factors found that there is still a gender pay wage gap of 94 cents to the dollar [1]. It's not-fact-based to keep touting the 77% number, but it's just as much not-fact-based to claim there isn't a gender wage gap because women feel "squeezed". [1] h…

This is deceptive because it's an opinion piece on Youtube.

The BLS study that controlled for occupation, industry, part-time vs. full-time, education levels, and other factors found that there is still a gender pay wage gap of 94 cents to the dollar [1].

It's not-fact-based to keep touting the 77% number, but it's just as much not-fact-based to claim there isn't a gender wage gap because women feel "squeezed".

Wow. Congrats on an incredible spin job! I'm saying there is a gender disparity, and that this is apparent in the sentiments of women! (Feeling "squeezed") Yet somehow you are spinning it as if I'm saying the opposite! I also assert that there is still a gender pay wage gap of 94 cents to the dollar -- right there in black and white in my gp comment. Are you somehow suggesting you are disagreeing with me by restating it in your comment?

It's not-fact-based to keep touting the 77% number, but it's just as much not-fact-based to claim there isn't a gender wage gap because women feel "squeezed".

Please re-read my comment. I am asserting that a) 70% or 80% is not factual. b) The factual number is more like 94%. c) The issue extends beyond that 94% number, involving the actual demands on women's time through societal expectations around essential but unpaid work done by women -- Women are effectively working more for less renumeration, but the issue is more nuanced than just one number can relate.

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#188

Post by grb423 »

russelluresti wrote: post #93
grb423 wrote: post #55

Is anybody studying the reasons behind the huge gender disparity in roofing, welding or kindergarten teaching? I think there is a tremendous gender bias in those and other fields that is going unstudied, because nobody cares or because those fields aren't as cool or important .

Ehhh. There's only about 360k welders in the U.S. and 3.6 million software engineers. That's an order of magnitude in difference in impact. Additionally, a software engineer probably makes more than a roofer, welder, and kindergarten teacher combined. Part of the reason for studying software engineering is because it's part of a larger trend of women not being as prevalent in high-paying careers. That's also why the…

Is this software engineering privilege? Are we shooting for universal equality?

Re: We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews

#190

Post by new_hackers »

Jemmeh wrote: post #25
benkuhn wrote: post #15

I would really have liked to see them check whether the gender-blinding actually worked. Even if someone's voice is modulated, they may have gendered behavior patterns that could influence someone's performance ratings. I wouldn't be surprised if I could guess the gender of a voice-modulated person pretty accurately from other cues. To combat this, they could have asked the interviewer during the performance assessme…

This would be a fantastic additional thing to monitor for. It was my first thought after hearing the voice modulation clips-- even in a manly voice, someone saying, "Oh I totally sound like a dude" sounded quite feminine since most guys wouldn't say "totally." Two things I noticed from the clip on the FastCompany article-- it's modulated, but I can hear A.) Vocal Fry B.) Statements that sound like they're ending with…

dude, what decade are you from? I'm totally stoked about this totally tubular voice modulation. It's like totally wicked dude! Totally!
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