Top developers can have a life outside coding • Hacker News Board

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#181

Post by JustSomeNobody » Sat, May 21, 2016, 6:32 PM UTC

mac01021 wrote: post #108

manmal wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in German we have a saying like "One kid is no kid". The increase from zero to one kid might feel like you mastered a big step (and it is!).. But a second kid is a total game changer. I am hard pressed to find some time for Netflix and a bit of guitar playing every once in a while. Do I want to exchange that for coding for some bigger cause? Nope.

Why is the jump from 1 to 2 bigger than the jump from 0 to 1?

The progression is not linear. It is exponential in terms of time.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#182

Post by maxxxxx » Sat, May 21, 2016, 6:34 PM UTC

erikb wrote: post #173

maxxxxx wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point the real skill becomes to develop a reasonable solution with reasonable effort. You don't have to keep chasing the latest cool frameworks forever. It's good to know what the trends are but you can safely skip many of them.

You are right, that if it is about putting bread on the plate of your children reasonable results are enough and for that reasonable effort is enough. I assume you don't plan on getting to the top with that, though. That's what the article and title limit the discussion to though. And that's what I'm arguing against. You can't be at the top with "reasonable" effort. And in case your first sentence means that you have…

I think you get to the top with reasonable effort because it's the shortest path to success. The best programmers I know don't work 80 hours per week. They work 40 or less but each of them with purpose. They don't do team building or play foosball. They don't attend endless meetings.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#183

Post by ryandrake » Sat, May 21, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #178

ryandrake wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I need a plumber, I don't choose one based on his fiery passion for plumbing or because he fixes toilets for free in his spare time.

I agree with the point you are making but would still continue to pay a little extra for someone that I knew enjoyed looking after the details while they were doing plumbing (or whatever trade).

Of course. Look for competence, not obsession.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#184

Post by eloff » Sat, May 21, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

hiphipjorge wrote: post #179

Here's the thing that this blog post is missing: It's a marketplace with competition. Yes, ideally, you shouldn't work outside work and spend all your free time doing other things, and there should be no world hunger. But it doesn't work that way. If I don't keep up to date and keep learning new things, someone else will (and the idea that this person is 20, white, male, and single seems a little racist and sexist to…

Exactly. And time invested in developing your skills, like any other education is a real investment. It accumulates over time and has real value down the road. A developer who spends a couple hours a day coding for fun is at an advantage over the others, but by the time he's been doing that for 10 years he/she will be on a completely different level to someone who hasn't.

As another example, drinking, smoking marijuana, vegging out in front of the TV, insert whatever "vice" you want here that wastes time/energy, might not hurt you much every now and then - but to excess it's going to accumulate into a serious competitive disadvantage overtime.

There are hard tradeoffs to be made between work-life balance and career success - and the results of those tradeoffs don't really become very obvious for a long time.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#185

Post by spraak » Sat, May 21, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #134

zo1 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>" Maybe racist by the dictionary definition " That is the only definition that matters. Everything else is subjective, relative and open to abuse by bad people from all sides. >" I as a white male can underachieve my way into anything while other genders and people of color must work much harder for the same. " Have you seen white people in poverty? They are no different than black people in poverty, and are just as…

> Have you seen white people in poverty? They are no different than black people in poverty, and are just as needing of our help. I don't disagree that this is a huge problem but consider what it's like for someone trying to work their way out when they obviously, unavoidably don't fit in. The key point here is simply recognizing that different areas of discrimination have different impacts and they combine super-lin…

Thank you for explaining this in detail. It's exactly what I was trying to say

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#186

Post by sklogic » Sat, May 21, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

jkot wrote: post #9

I think this article is detached from reality. Most people who contribute to OS are on low income, unemployed or students. Top developers in banks and startups dont have time for that, or are forbidden by their company. Being "top developer" is one of the most family friendly jobs that ever existed. You can work remotely at your own time. I quit cubicle and started working on opensource because I had family. > you mi…

I was under impression that most of the OSS contributors are full time paid employees. Projects like gcc, llvm, linux kernel, etc. are all corporate work.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#187

Post by brianwawok » Sat, May 21, 2016, 7:17 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #23

I propose the Daenerys Targaryen test. If you know who Daenerys Targaryen is, you do not have "no time." You have priorities which included "I wish to know who Daenerys Targaryen is." No judgement! I do, too! But if you know who Daenerys Targaryen is and you're dissatisfied with your career growth, you should attempt to consciously be aware of the fact that you can choose different things in the future. It takes minu…

The better test is if you know what color Daenerys Targaryen's eyes are ;)

A human cannot be productive all the time. We need downtime. Time to spend with family. Time to sit and stare at a wall. If some of that wall stare time involves movies or books or TV, so be it.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#188

Post by nathan_f77 » Sat, May 21, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

The author talks about open source as if someone is selflessly contributing their spare time for no real reason. Who does that? Whenever I work on open source, it's because I need something personally, and it doesn't exist unless I create it. It's like criticizing someone for spending all week at work, and then mowing their lawn or painting their house on a saturday. (Although I find programming to be 100x more fun.) If it's not fun, you're not getting paid, you're not doing it for yourself, then you really don't need do it. Unless you're doing it for clout or your portfolio, I guess.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#189

Post by dasil003 » Sat, May 21, 2016, 7:21 PM UTC

hiphipjorge wrote: post #179

Here's the thing that this blog post is missing: It's a marketplace with competition. Yes, ideally, you shouldn't work outside work and spend all your free time doing other things, and there should be no world hunger. But it doesn't work that way. If I don't keep up to date and keep learning new things, someone else will (and the idea that this person is 20, white, male, and single seems a little racist and sexist to…

I agree, but it's important to frame the issue. The reality is being a software developer is a pretty sought-after job. Yes, companies will do what they can to take advantage of any employee, but it's not like we're coal miners here. When you put in time outside of work to keep your skills up to date that is investing in yourself, not the company.

But is it required to put in extra hours to stay competitive? All else being equal, of course it's a competitive advantage. Where that breaks down is that programming productivity is hard to measure and far from fungible. The scary truth is that the nature of the job you do might have more impact on your skill set progression than whatever you do in your spare time. If you are stuck maintaining some baroque legacy system then you might be developing domain knowledge that is useless anywhere else. Conversely, if you are directly interacting with customers, or collaborating with smart, experienced developers on hard problems, or addressing business problems from first principles, then your learning might be accelerated.

In the end, developer jobs are definitely a marketplace, but not a commodity marketplace. There are many paths to success. For young developers I would definitely advocate putting in all the time you can simply because there is a big initial hump to get over before it even becomes apparent whether you have any potential or not. But once you are a competent developer, then domain knowledge and soft skills bring far more competitive advantage than learning the latest whiz-bang framework.

Re: Top developers can have a life outside coding

#190

Post by CamonZ » Sat, May 21, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

TickleSteve wrote: post #28

jkot wrote: post #9

I think this article is detached from reality. Most people who contribute to OS are on low income, unemployed or students. Top developers in banks and startups dont have time for that, or are forbidden by their company. Being "top developer" is one of the most family friendly jobs that ever existed. You can work remotely at your own time. I quit cubicle and started working on opensource because I had family. > you mi…

Despite rumours to the contrary... remote working is still a very small minority of coding work. The overwhelming majority of coding work (at whatever level, top or bottom) is carried out 9-5 in offices. Also "top developer" != "open source developer".

> top developer" != "open source developer".

Very true, the thing is, companies go for developers with tons of OSS code and conferences both as speakers and attendees for two reasons:

First is the fact that you become a known quantity, OSS code is code that you have produced and that any prospective employer can look at and see its "quality". It also solidifies you as more of a domain expert which in turn allows you to get better wages.

Second, having employees with OSS contributions and speaking at conferences is good for the bottom line of employers, they can "gloat" more easily on how they have the "top talent" and are thought leaders of industry. This in turn allows them to charge their clients more and lets the find prospects easier.

It's all about perception and influence.

*Ninja Edited for grammar.