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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#181

Post by tacos »

JimDabell wrote: post #35
iamleppert wrote: post #24

I bet none of these engineers have spent a single night in jail. All it would take would be for a judge to send a single one to jail for the weekend, and they'd be happy to quickly bang out whatever the government wanted as soon as possible on Monday morning. The sentiment is nice, but I doubt the government is worried in the slightest. The government is all powerful and can be whatever it wants, lest we forget.

> All it would take would be for a judge to send a single one to jail for the weekend On what grounds? None of them have broken the law and the order, should it come about, would be for Apple to perform this work, not specific employees (or, if they resign, ex-employees). What would be the route for the government to compel specific individuals – who do not own or control Apple's code or data, and individually are no…

1) Judge rules that Apple must disclose the information.

2) Judge issues a subpoena to an employee that another employee has said is capable of retrieving the information.

"Do you have the capability to retrieve this PIN number?"

"Yes, your honor."

"Will you do so?"

"No, your honor."

"I find you in contempt. Lock this gentleman up."

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#182

Post by mindcrime »

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail?

I can't imagine any way in hell that would fly. The only remotely conceivable path to doing something like that would be to have Congress implement a draft, and draft them into the military. Anything else would almost certainly violate the 13th and/or 10th Amendments to the Constitution. And the draft thing is probably a stretch as well, especially in the absence of a declaration of war.

Then again, I never put it past the US government to try anything, no matter how illegal it is.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#183

Post by geofft »

jacquesm wrote: post #29
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

You're in the territory of outright slavery. That would be a new low on all fronts.

Lavabit's amicus brief explicitly argues that interpreting the All Writs Act the way the government is trying to interpret it is prohibited by the Thirteenth Amendment.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#184

Post by hobs »

studentrob wrote: post #178
enraged_camel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing any sort of "gigantic public debate." Sure, it looks that way from within our tech bubble, but let's be real: the overwhelming majority of people in the United States do not give a shit and could not care less. And among the remaining small minority, encryption is way down on the list of issues they care about and choose to spend time and mental energy on. Further complicating things is the fact that t…

> too ignorant to understand the important nuance Lindsey Graham came around. Sam Harris changed his point of view after a fairly combative initial stance against technologists. We will never know if we can inform the public unless we try. There are some good analogies out there supporting encryption. Use them. I recommend the one from Sam Harris' third video on the subject. There is also the whack-a-mole argument. H…

The technologists are constantly ignored by the populace, and major news outlets have been braying about this for years, Snowden being the most recent gigantic newsworthy event where it was in-arguably shown the united states spies on us way more than it lets on, and we should choose encryption if we value our privacy.

What is the outcome of this major revelation? Much of the public thinks no different than before in regards to government spying or encryption, and security practices are not fundamentally different even after years of media advertising what happened. Many people don't even know the significance of Snowden.

We should definitely push harder for the correct stance on encryption but I cant help and think your hope is a bit pollyannish.

How many interviews did Tim Cook give again? How many news outlets brayed this at the top of their lungs? https://www.google.com/search?q=new+york+times+apple+fbi&ie=...

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#185

Post by hamiltonkibbe »

beedogs wrote: post #142
daurnimator wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

revenue != profits. Will people please stop quoting revenue figures for things like this.

Their profits are still in the dozens of millions, per day. Will people please stop splitting hairs?

1 order of magnitude difference isn't my definition of splitting hairs

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#186

Post by dolske »

melvinmt wrote: post #101
studentrob wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

> They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. Apple's revenue is $658 million per day (2015), not sure if they care too much about "hundreds of thousands".

The feds threatened Yahoo with a fine of $250,000/day, _doubling every week_. It doesn't take long for that to become astronomical.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/09/15...

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#187

Post by hoipaloi »

joshka wrote: post #119

Even putting the engineers in the position to have to make a choice to resist means that you damage their career prospects whichever way they choose. To be known as 'that guy' who {supported a corrupt government/supported terrorism} polarizes future job choices. There's no real upside. As someone asked to do this, I'd be asking for all future earnings up front from the FBI, so the economic worth of this is really 8 o…

If you are one of the very few encryption engineers at apple that can do this, you are already one of their highest paid employees, and also one of the most sought after in the entire realm of tech. Quitting over this is likely to drive your value up even higher.

The FBI when it compels people to do things, pays nothing to have them do it. That's the power of the law.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#188

Post by ethbro »

hobs wrote: post #184
studentrob wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> too ignorant to understand the important nuance Lindsey Graham came around. Sam Harris changed his point of view after a fairly combative initial stance against technologists. We will never know if we can inform the public unless we try. There are some good analogies out there supporting encryption. Use them. I recommend the one from Sam Harris' third video on the subject. There is also the whack-a-mole argument. H…

The technologists are constantly ignored by the populace, and major news outlets have been braying about this for years, Snowden being the most recent gigantic newsworthy event where it was in-arguably shown the united states spies on us way more than it lets on, and we should choose encryption if we value our privacy. What is the outcome of this major revelation? Much of the public thinks no different than before in…

Snowden and the NSA dragnet are a bit more abstract than a personal right to encryption on a device in ones ownership.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#189

Post by studentrob »

hobs wrote: post #184
studentrob wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> too ignorant to understand the important nuance Lindsey Graham came around. Sam Harris changed his point of view after a fairly combative initial stance against technologists. We will never know if we can inform the public unless we try. There are some good analogies out there supporting encryption. Use them. I recommend the one from Sam Harris' third video on the subject. There is also the whack-a-mole argument. H…

The technologists are constantly ignored by the populace, and major news outlets have been braying about this for years, Snowden being the most recent gigantic newsworthy event where it was in-arguably shown the united states spies on us way more than it lets on, and we should choose encryption if we value our privacy. What is the outcome of this major revelation? Much of the public thinks no different than before in…

> I cant help and think your hope is a bit pollyannish.

See, it's words like pollyannish that we shouldn't be using when engaging the public. Only kidding. But I did need to look that one up. Thanks for making me think about it. I'd say it describes me well.

If you think that is a worthless way to look at the world, then that is my problem right? What skin is it off your back?

Regardless of whether you see good in other people or not, the fact is people can and do learn about things and change their points of view. You can't point to an uninformed mass and say they are incapable of learning. En masse, yeah I agree, we can't flip a switch, but that's the way it should be. People have their own brains and should use them. We just need to present the facts about encryption in a manner that is clear for non-techies. I think there are a lot of ways to do that. If you aren't up for it, that is your decision and I support you in that.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#190

Post by oh_sigh »

studentrob wrote: post #178
enraged_camel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing any sort of "gigantic public debate." Sure, it looks that way from within our tech bubble, but let's be real: the overwhelming majority of people in the United States do not give a shit and could not care less. And among the remaining small minority, encryption is way down on the list of issues they care about and choose to spend time and mental energy on. Further complicating things is the fact that t…

> too ignorant to understand the important nuance Lindsey Graham came around. Sam Harris changed his point of view after a fairly combative initial stance against technologists. We will never know if we can inform the public unless we try. There are some good analogies out there supporting encryption. Use them. I recommend the one from Sam Harris' third video on the subject. There is also the whack-a-mole argument. H…

What was sam harris's point of view?
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