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The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

arstechnica.co.uk

181–190 of 221 posts

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academia doesn't drive anyone out of the military. It may dissuade some people from joining. US military culture drives people out. Either by being surrounded by lazy or coasting individuals who think of the military as just a job (discouraging to more ideologically minded people). Or by being hammered by the ugly, jingoistic rhetoric and motivations of some peers and leadership. Or by being too smart and standing to…

Oh that is why ROTC is such a big issue and many elite universities do not have it in their campuses. Intellectualism is absent in military? Some of the best lectures I watched are from Naval War College. TOR comes from that part of the woods. You do not have individualism in any armed forces, this is absolutely lunatic. Its like preaching individualism in Basketball team and telling Allen Iverson he is oh so special…

Re ROTC: Which elite universities are you speaking of and why don't they have ROTC detachments? It appears, from a cursory glance, that MIT and Harvard don't have ROTC detachments, then those cadets would go to a detachment at a nearby university. This is typical for smaller schools that neighbor other universities (see universities and colleges in Atlanta, GA for this as well, several of them send or sent their cadets to GA Tech's detachments rather than hosting their own for a smaller cadet corps).

Re Individualism: You're taking the extreme position of individualism which is not what I intended. I meant those people who generally don't suffer from groupthink.

An example of groupthink, second-hand tale: During the second Iraq War, my father was responsible for a lot of CSAR mission planning for the USAF. He would not send helicopters into bad weather conditions (primarily sandstorms) that he knew (after 20+ years of experience) they couldn't handle. The Army CSAR guys would send in their own birds and crews. The USAF CSAR crews would then have two rescue missions once the weather cleared. There was a pressure to ignore reality and press forward despite the odds and regardless of the cost that put more personnel and materiel at risk than necessary. In some sense it's honorable, in another it's just stupid. A degree of individuality, the ability and willingness to risk saying "no" when everyone else is hell bent on something, is the sort of individualism that's needed.

Sometimes in combat situations like the above, but the majority of the time not. See the drone programs, surveillance programs, acquisitions programs, that are either unethical, ill-conceived, or just wasteful. Groupthink allows them to persist. Generals who let it slide because they know they're getting promoted in 18-24 months and it'll be someone else's problem allow them to persist.

Some degree of individualism is necessary in both the officer and enlisted corps to step in and alter the culture.

A squad of all individuals unable to act as a team, yeah, that'd be fucking stupid. Obviously that's not what I was talking about. If you thought it was, you took the worst possible interpretation of my words and ran with it. Great.

But an officer corps of all yes-men drones is useless, too. They need people that can break out of the mold at every rank, not just the top.

EDIT: And because it's not clear. Sometimes, the willingness to say "yes" when everyone else is saying no is also useful. The story above was about being more risk-averse than the group, and it being the better option. But sometimes the group is too risk-averse and someone willing to step in and risk failure is what's needed - see the example of the generals who let shit stand instead of changing them. The real leaders will step in and risk their career when something is broken but unchanging because of fear or cargo cult behavior or whatever else.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#182
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why pacifism is "more evolved." Violence is one of the most fundamental interactions between organisms, right up there with eating and sexual reproduction. Is eating "primitive?" Are you looking forward to a future where humans "evolve" out of needing to eat? Throughout history, prosperous and successful societies have been built on the back of military power (Egypt, Rome, Great Britain).

We, as a human species, are supposed to evolve beyond our basic immediate needs. We created societies, because we need to eat, reproduce, survive, without reverting to base violence. We created medicine, technology to improve our quality of life and reduce the chances that biological evolutionary pressure destroys us. The black plague came close to killing 60% of the European population. It is now eradicated. What is…

Does our technology and development "evolve [us] beyond our basic immediate needs" or do we use it to serve needs we've always had? We spend an enormous amount of our effort making both food and sex easier and more abundant (there's an app for that!).

Violence isn't a vice that could be eliminated if only people had more virtue. It serves a practical function. It's the ultimate dispute resolution mechanism for people who either have too little in common or too much at stake to resolve their issues in any other way. Prosperity, abundance, and homogeneity makes it less necessary over time, but so long as conflict is possible between people, violence will be the final resort for resolving it.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#184
post #72

Oh come on "machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands.." just put a "may be" and your BS assertion becomes more plausible? By looking at this, people are having and idea that attack drones (it is rich that article puts one picture of it in the beginning) are loaded with such software and killing by looking at the result of a classifier. Or some super computer gives you a name and says "exterminate". Apparen…

If putting a huge number of innocent people on a "probably terrorist" list secret intelligence agencies use to pick targets to secretly execute without trial isn't a big deal, would you be okay visiting rural Pakistan for a week with your name and face on one? Let's assume you're ethnically Pakistani.

I mean after all, they do human intelligence checks, right? So you'd be safe.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#185

So yes, a state would not be much of a state without some form of military. But why do we need separate states? Edit: this is a genuine question about the practicality of a concept (the "nation-state") that was invented during the Gutenberg era of the printing press, and how such a concept has become impractical in the age of instantaneous international interconnectivity and economic globalization. Downvoters: How ar…

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11109756 and marked it off-topic.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#186
I feel infuriated while reading that they named it Skynet. They are clearly the ones creating terror, that's so absurd! I can't believe that they do not have the understanding that this very act is what propagates wars and keep them going on forever. As it cannot pass as ignorance, I take as malicious the people who feed this system.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much love for King, but he was wrong as a point of fact. Violence has by far resolved more issues than anything else.

Could you provide some notable examples where violence has resolved issues in the long term and did not lead to more issues/violence? This thread is in relation to the religious wars currently going on in the middle east. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims have been trying to use violence to resolve their issues in the middle east for thousands of years now to no avail.

A few notable ones off the top of my head:

WW2

American Revolutionary War

The Roman-Carthaginian wars

Genocide of the Ainu in Japan

Genocide of the Neanderthals by Homo Sapiens in Europe (Maybe; it's theorized at least)

The Gombe Chimpanzee War

I'm sure I can come up with more if you like.

The primary reason Jews, Christians, and Muslims are having trouble solving their problems using violence is that they're not using enough violence.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Are you looking forward to a future where humans "evolve" out of needing to eat? " Actually yes, absolutely! Don't get me wrong, I love eating as well as cooking, but I have to agree that a stupid amount of time is spent on doing those things. If I could switch to a solution where I take a pill and it provides my body with all possible nutrition then I would in an instant.

Yeah, I had a flatmate not long ago that took 'enjoying cooking' to a lewvel I'd never witnessed before. He would spend three or four hours in the kitchen each night and sometimes all day on Saturdays and Sundays. It baffled me to no end to spend that much time just to sate hunger.

Yeah I spend ~40 minutes making dinner and then another 40 minutes later in the evening making lunch for myself and my partner for the following day. Then there's cleaning up time as well. I like having home made food at work the next day but it's time I could be using for programming and other things really.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#189
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you're getting at, but ISIS command consists mostly of former Iraqi officials that were sidelined after Saddam Hussein was ousted. The soil was initially fertilized by burning down Iraq. The "fertile ground" that allows moderates to become radicalized eventually boils down to polarization. It doesn't really matter whether the rhetoric is coming from Somalia, Nigeria, Mali, Turkey, Indonesia, Libya, Isra…

I was careful in my wording. I do grant that the initial war in Iraq catalyzed the creation of ISIS. What I was saying here is that the power vacuum we caused in Syria and especially Libya created a place where that seed could grow and thrive. But anyway, that wasn't the main point. The real point was to show that it wasn't a neocon that started our wars in Libya and Syria - it was today's iconic Progressive who did…

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Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Are you looking forward to a future where humans "evolve" out of needing to eat? " Actually yes, absolutely! Don't get me wrong, I love eating as well as cooking, but I have to agree that a stupid amount of time is spent on doing those things. If I could switch to a solution where I take a pill and it provides my body with all possible nutrition then I would in an instant.

Yeah, I had a flatmate not long ago that took 'enjoying cooking' to a lewvel I'd never witnessed before. He would spend three or four hours in the kitchen each night and sometimes all day on Saturdays and Sundays. It baffled me to no end to spend that much time just to sate hunger.

>It baffled me to no end to spend that much time just to sate hunger.

Clearly he wasn't trying to sate hunger. Cooking is as much of a hobby as hacking or being a "maker." Plus eating food is way more than just satiating hunger. I don't like cooking but I loving eating and drinking.

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