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The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#161

Post by [deleted] »

rdancer wrote: post #159
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A drone strike typically kills identified terrorist targets but also unidentified targets. The trick is that as long as bystanding casualities (also children yes - or as the drone operators call them "fun sized terrorists") have not been identified they're automatically counted as terrorists. (see also https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/ ) I don't think now that the beast has been unleashed it can be controlled or…

It took one executive order to start this, it will take one executive order to stop it. The election is in a year's time. Make your vote count!

[deleted]

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#162

Post by alanwatts »

abecedarius wrote: post #160
hodwik wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

We, if you mean the U.S., once considered a large standing army a hallmark of tyranny: e.g. http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_12s6.... is George Washington needing to argue "yet a few Troops, under certain circumstances, are not only safe, but indispensably necessary". How we got from there to over a third of the total world military spending, well, it's a long story, and I don't know what to do,…

>In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence against foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

-James Madison, Constitutional Convention (1787-06-29)

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#163

Post by sremani »

Jtsummers wrote: post #122
hodwik wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

Academia doesn't drive anyone out of the military. It may dissuade some people from joining. US military culture drives people out. Either by being surrounded by lazy or coasting individuals who think of the military as just a job (discouraging to more ideologically minded people). Or by being hammered by the ugly, jingoistic rhetoric and motivations of some peers and leadership. Or by being too smart and standing to…

Oh that is why ROTC is such a big issue and many elite universities do not have it in their campuses.

Intellectualism is absent in military? Some of the best lectures I watched are from Naval War College. TOR comes from that part of the woods.

You do not have individualism in any armed forces, this is absolutely lunatic. Its like preaching individualism in Basketball team and telling Allen Iverson he is oh so special and do it all ( which he did and spectacularly failed). US Military just like other military is Socialist both in its creed and organization. That is no surprise and PG actually credit to Post-War equality in America to be by-product of Military service and GI bill.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#164

Post by tremon »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #151
arca_vorago wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolute bullshit. The problem is that we need a military that is actually going to man the fuck up when an O-5+ decides to push some unconstitutional program on the people. What has happened isnt that hippy academia is jacking up the military, but rather that the military has been kicking out the kind of people who arent afraid to tell truth to power, and are increasingly making choices and then only hiring…

allowing the neocons to push us into wars for dubious reasons It seems to me that it was some group other than neocons that got us inveigled in war in Libya and Syria - thereby creating the fertile spawning ground for ISIS.

Not sure what you're getting at, but ISIS command consists mostly of former Iraqi officials that were sidelined after Saddam Hussein was ousted. The soil was initially fertilized by burning down Iraq.

The "fertile ground" that allows moderates to become radicalized eventually boils down to polarization. It doesn't really matter whether the rhetoric is coming from Somalia, Nigeria, Mali, Turkey, Indonesia, Libya, Israel, Europe or the US; as long as the discourse goes in terms of "us vs them", many people will identify (and act) as victims.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#165

Post by dalke »

vonmoltke wrote: post #153
dalke wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Costa Rica doesn't have a military. (See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_arme... .) How has that country failed in its duty to the citizenry?

Correction: Costa Rica has no standing army . They have a gendarmarie and other paramilitary forces organized under the Fuerza Pública (Public Force). To say they have no military is not accurate.

There's a definition nuance I don't follow. When https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Costa_Rica says "Costa Rica does not officially have a military" and "abolished the military of Costa Rica", that makes me think it has no military.

When http://www.coha.org/costa-rica-an-army-less-nation-in-a-prob... says "Without a formal military force, Costa Rica had no need to regularly invest in naval vessels, warplanes, or tanks, which typically make up the heavy equipment of any traditional armed forces." and "It is important to consider that a state that has no military is by nature nonviolent.", that makes me think it has no military.

The same with http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/15/opinion/la-oe-barash... which says "Henceforth, Costa Rica would take the almost unheard-of step of renouncing its military."

I don't understand why I should believe it has a military. At best we have different ideas of what a "military" means.

You mention "gendarmarie and other paramilitary forces" as a type of military. SWAT team are paramilitary forces, no? Would it be fair to say that Los Angeles has its own military? What about paramilitary support for anti-poaching and other conservation efforts?

The essay at https://medium.com/war-is-boring/costa-rica-doesnt-have-a-mi... attempts to convince me that the UEI is a "small military force in all but name", and that "the distinction between police and military work in Central America is a lot fuzzier than it might seem". I am not convinced by their comparison of how the police in Costa Rica have a drug interdiction role which is done by the military in other Central American countries - after all, in the US there is both military and police involvement in the same role.

Perhaps I can resolve the topic with two questions: 1) did Costa Rica have a military in 1990 (which is before the gendarmarie and the UEI)? and 2) what would Costa Rica need to abolish in order to say it doesn't have a military? Just the 70 people in the UEI?

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#166

Post by sremani »

abecedarius wrote: post #160
hodwik wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a military. All states do -- its part of their duty to their citizenry. The problem in the US is that our hippy-run academia are driving the smart people out of jobs in the military (and police force for that matter), and it's putting us in a terrible position. The only way to fix it is for smart people to start joining the military again.

We, if you mean the U.S., once considered a large standing army a hallmark of tyranny: e.g. http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_12s6.... is George Washington needing to argue "yet a few Troops, under certain circumstances, are not only safe, but indispensably necessary". How we got from there to over a third of the total world military spending, well, it's a long story, and I don't know what to do,…

@alanwatts,

that is the kind of talk that left US exposed in 1812 War and the West Point, Naval academy were a product of realities post-1812 war. You can quote all Madison you want, but the need for professional army was evident through out the world and worked like a charm in 1845 When US wrested massive land from Mexico.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#167

Post by tremon »

pc86 wrote: post #150
alanwatts wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the thoughts of great scientists and engineers like Buckminster Fuller (Former president of the Mensa Society) and Carl Sagan are unwarranted in a place like hackernews then you should find a new forum. Do you have anything to contribute to this discussion? Edit: "The argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ad verecundiam) also appeal to authority, is a common argument form which can be fallacious, su…

Since you're a fan of linking to Wikipedia articles about fallacious arguments, I'll just leave this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

That doesn't apply, and you know it. The fallacy is constructed as "A has said B, A is great, therefore B must be true".

The GP never stated that B must be true. Simply quoting somebody is not in itself a fallacy.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#168

Post by ansible »

Aeolos wrote: post #58
spazmaster wrote: post #22

The thing that stood out for me is "Somewhere between 2,500 and 4,000 people have been killed by drone strikes in Pakistan since 2004". WHAT!? That is so wrong! This stinks and we're making fuss about mathematics. Just read that sentence again.

Exactly. In which freaking world are assassinations without due process legal or even desirable? The mere fact that we are debating whether someone was or wasn't assassinated is a perversion in itself. Arrest them and try them in a court of justice. End of story.

I will not, in any way, defend the actions of the current programs being run.

However, your statement:

Arrest them and try them in a court of justice. End of story.

Is not at all easy to accomplish. The government of Pakistan doesn't control a significant part of the country.

Add to that the corruption at all levels, and it would be difficult to pursue an arrest warrant effectively. If you try to negotiate your way into the areas where the suspects are, it will take a while (and likely a lot of bribes) and they will hear of it and go into hiding. If you want to ignore all the formalities, and just rush in and grab the suspect, you're effectively mounting a small invasion, which the central government AND the tribal leaders will oppose. So you're back to shooting people again.

Again, I'm not saying what the USA is doing is a good solution, I'm just saying I'm not aware of a good and effective solution at all.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#169

Post by tremon »

15charlimit wrote: post #107
mike_hearn wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence is that the head of the NSA literally said, "we use metadata to kill people". It doesn't get more direct than that. Signature strikes are a well documented phenomenon by now. Also there's no way the CIA drone program can sustain the kind of long term kill rates they've been having without routinely killing innocent people. Terrorists just aren't that common (although if you define anyone who tries to see…

I can't believe I'm actually defending the NSA here, but "we use metadata to kill people" does not mean "we ONLY use metadata and nothing else".

Of course, they also use bullets.

/s

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#170

Post by arca_vorago »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #151
arca_vorago wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolute bullshit. The problem is that we need a military that is actually going to man the fuck up when an O-5+ decides to push some unconstitutional program on the people. What has happened isnt that hippy academia is jacking up the military, but rather that the military has been kicking out the kind of people who arent afraid to tell truth to power, and are increasingly making choices and then only hiring…

allowing the neocons to push us into wars for dubious reasons It seems to me that it was some group other than neocons that got us inveigled in war in Libya and Syria - thereby creating the fertile spawning ground for ISIS.

Neocons are just a front for the Leo Straussian Chicago school of globalism, with players like Kissinger and Brezenski.

note: too late to edit original comment, but I meant to say "it's not the military", eg the military is being played in this global chessboard by other entities.

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