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Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

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Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#181

Post by kafkaesq »

jccc wrote: post #14

I don't particularly like the guy, but is there a campaign of deliberate misinterpretation going on? Yes, probably a really stupid thing to say, and perhaps wrong for many reasons. No, he did not say India should have kept Britain as its colonial power, or any of the other incredible interpretations now flying around the Twittersphere. Jonny Axelsson: Anti-semitism not the opposite of semitism. Now whether anti-colon…

Please [don't] disagree with my point that he really didn't say take India back to British colonialism.

He didn't literally "say" that, but it's (nearly) irrelevant to point that out. The bigger point is that what he indisputably did say was, by itself, utterly idiotic and offensive.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#182

Post by MaysonL »

w1ntermute wrote: post #90
azzafazza wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You summed up exactly what I thought it in my head about his Tweets, he is positively juvenile.

Evans has been called out for his idiotic behavior before[0]. From what I can tell, his only contribution to a discussion is to say the most banal things (ex: there will be 5B smartphone users in 2020) in a way that makes them sounds original. 0: http://www.buzzfeed.com/williamalden/benedict-evans-wants-to...

That buzzer would be more meaningful if any of those tweets were linked or dated.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#183

Post by eternalban »

oxymoron wrote: post #150
eternalban wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Above is (somewhat) right. Meet the original BP [1] The Shah was not a puppet. Puppets dance to the tune of puppet master & master would not replace said puppet with Ayatollahs. Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was an Iranian Nationalist and the story of 20th century in Iran is far far more nuanced than the caricature painted by (very interested) partisans such as Kinzer. Do the research. This [2] is the Iran that the "puppet's…

Thanks for the elaboration! Having read only a single book on the subject, I figured that my account would be somewhat biased, even though I tried (through googling) to verify what I wrote. I'll refer to your links and try to widen my perspective! Having said that, I think Kinzer do your view more justice than I did in my summary. I do apologize for over simplifying things.

Glad it was helpful. Now read the below if you want to understand a bit better what's up with "Middle East" [sic] and what has been going in that area -- "instability" --since the Shah of Iran was forced out.

http://masoudbehnoud.com/weblog/s2.pdf

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#184

Post by mekoka »

rayiner wrote: post #92
factorialboy wrote: post #4

Extremely stupid tweet by Andreessen. He probably doesn't even realize that, like most ignorant people. FYI it was socialism that held back the Indian economy during the 70s and 80s. And it was colonialism that drained the country's wealth for over two hundred years. Here, Mr. Andreessen, educate yourself: https://www.google.com/search?q=bengal+famine

One thing I never see mentioned in this debate is the fact that America was a British colony as well, and colonial status definitely drained American wealth for centuries (though obviously, the occupation of India was far more brutal). But I think it's highly unlikely that America ever would've become a superpower without the benefit of British culture, institutions, and law.

The wealth stayed in America. Also don't forget the prior free labour.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#185

Post by knight17 »

oxymoron wrote: post #127
factorialboy wrote: post #4

Extremely stupid tweet by Andreessen. He probably doesn't even realize that, like most ignorant people. FYI it was socialism that held back the Indian economy during the 70s and 80s. And it was colonialism that drained the country's wealth for over two hundred years. Here, Mr. Andreessen, educate yourself: https://www.google.com/search?q=bengal+famine

On the subject on British attitudes towards the third world, an illuminating example is that of Iran. English prospectors found oil in Iran in the early years of the 20th century, a find that in the words on Winston Churchill was "a prize from fairyland beyond our wildest dreams". Britain established what was then the largest refinery in the world in Abadan, Iran, operated with was effectively slave labour, and spent…

Shashi Tharoor, MP explains Indian situation at Oxford Union:

Britain Does Owe Reparations https://youtu.be/f7CW7S0zxv4

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#186

Post by kafkaesq »

wrs wrote: post #174

The idiotic spectacle of otherwise intelligent people attempting to pursue a complex argument in 140-character fortune cookies is so abhorrent to me. More than anything he has actually said, Marc Andreesen's move to Twitter as the vehicle for his pronouncements has made me lose a lot of the respect I had for him. How can anyone think Twitter is appropriate for this?

How can anyone think Twitter is appropriate for this?

Marc chose to do us a favor, and show us his true colors last night. And Twitter was the perfect vehicle for that.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#187

Post by jccc »

kafkaesq wrote: post #181
jccc wrote: post #14

I don't particularly like the guy, but is there a campaign of deliberate misinterpretation going on? Yes, probably a really stupid thing to say, and perhaps wrong for many reasons. No, he did not say India should have kept Britain as its colonial power, or any of the other incredible interpretations now flying around the Twittersphere. Jonny Axelsson: Anti-semitism not the opposite of semitism. Now whether anti-colon…

Please [don't] disagree with my point that he really didn't say take India back to British colonialism. He didn't literally "say" that, but it's (nearly) irrelevant to point that out. The bigger point is that what he indisputably did say was, by itself, utterly idiotic and offensive.

I am not making the point that he didn't literally say what people are choosing to assume he meant. I am making the point that the assumption people are making about what he meant is wildly unfounded, and is mainly useful for justifying their already-held opinions about him.

And I am making the point that employing this misinterpretation to criticize him undermines the important, substantive reasons to criticize him.

(It is somewhat ironic that you make your point by rewriting my words in a way that significantly changes their tone, and likely changes how readers would interpret them.)

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#188

Post by kafkaesq »

jccc wrote: post #23
factorialboy wrote: post #4

Extremely stupid tweet by Andreessen. He probably doesn't even realize that, like most ignorant people. FYI it was socialism that held back the Indian economy during the 70s and 80s. And it was colonialism that drained the country's wealth for over two hundred years. Here, Mr. Andreessen, educate yourself: https://www.google.com/search?q=bengal+famine

FYI it was socialism that held back the Indian economy during the 70s and 80s. Which is exactly what he says he meant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11072752

In the face of overwhelming condemnation, that might be what he now says he initially "meant." But I don't see any particular reason to believe him. He knows he's backed himself into a corner and desperately trying to spin himself out of it. But even so, that very statement you quoted (and which marca said "Exactly") to:

@pmarca referred to the post-colonial anti-colonial mix of nationalism, socialism, abuse/power that afflicted many ex-colonies

is itself pretty obtuse -- it's basically saying that post-colonial societies like India still haven't quite "grown up" yet, and don't really know what's best for them. Hence, their rejection of the wondrous gift to humanity that is Free Basics.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#189

Post by shas3 »

guyraput wrote: post #89
factorialboy wrote: post #4

Extremely stupid tweet by Andreessen. He probably doesn't even realize that, like most ignorant people. FYI it was socialism that held back the Indian economy during the 70s and 80s. And it was colonialism that drained the country's wealth for over two hundred years. Here, Mr. Andreessen, educate yourself: https://www.google.com/search?q=bengal+famine

It was just pure ignorance. Some of the larger impacts of colonialism: Indian share of world economy went from 23-24% before colonialism to less than 4% under colonialism. India's share of World Trade went from 27% to 2% under colonialism. India's healthcare worsened during colonialism because all the resources were exported to Europe for cheap and in abundance India's literacy was worsened during colonialism and was…

Colonialism was one factor. It is not clear how India would have imbibed and benefited from the Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution in the absence of British presence in the subcontinent. Just a reminder that British presence started in the very late 18th century, but their true hegemony was for 90 years, between 1857 and 1947. Japan had American presence, but no hegemony and is a good counterpoint to those who claim that colonialism has benefits. A few things to note: without the British, there may never have been a coherent whole of "India" as we know today. Counterfactuals are hard, but it is hard to assume that there would necessarily have been an Indian Bismarck or Garibaldi had there been no British hegemony. Different regions and kingdoms in India would have developed differently. You would have had a few Japans, notably in the South, West coast, Northeast, and parts of the Gangetic heartland: regions which were always wealthy and/or politically stable.

Whether the economy would have declined less in the absence of colonialism is really impossible to answer. But to cite colonialism as the only reason is wrong, especially since the decline coincides roughly with the scientific and industrial revolutions that occurred in Western Europe and later, America.

Re: Marc Andreessen Pro-Colonialism Tweet Riles India Tech World

#190

Post by eternalban »

eternalban wrote: post #141
oxymoron wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the subject on British attitudes towards the third world, an illuminating example is that of Iran. English prospectors found oil in Iran in the early years of the 20th century, a find that in the words on Winston Churchill was "a prize from fairyland beyond our wildest dreams". Britain established what was then the largest refinery in the world in Abadan, Iran, operated with was effectively slave labour, and spent…

Above is (somewhat) right. Meet the original BP [1] The Shah was not a puppet. Puppets dance to the tune of puppet master & master would not replace said puppet with Ayatollahs. Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was an Iranian Nationalist and the story of 20th century in Iran is far far more nuanced than the caricature painted by (very interested) partisans such as Kinzer. Do the research. This [2] is the Iran that the "puppet's…

p.s. Hadn't seen this interview before myself and it is on point and directly addresses the '54 oil deal[1].

[1]: https://youtu.be/n-grR1e6dw8

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