Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#171

Post by vezzy-fnord » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:22 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #114

I live in Switzerland, and have lived in two other countries. Also have lots of connections in the US. Here's my take: 1) You have work-life balance, but it is forced on you. Especially women. If you go out around noon, you will see loads of school kids walking home to get their lunch. Full time childcare is CHF30K at my local nursery. School is free, but lunch will cost you extra. And the nursery has holidays, btw.…

I can't imagine what it's like in the US if she thinks Switzerland is good for parental leave.

No paid maternal leave beyond the employer's discretion with the only exceptions of New Jersey, Rhode Island and California.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#172

Post by Hermel » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:22 PM UTC

Sfi81 wrote: post #113

blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

Well you have to remember that the Swiss have both better income sources (assisting the world's wealthy & many corporations evade/optimize taxes for instance) and don't have military expenses and such due to neutrality. While many problems of the US are of its own creation due to either ideology or wealth dominating politics (healthcare & education spring to mind), it is quite unfair to compare what the Swiss governm…

Actually, neutrality requires more military spending. As a NATO country, Switzerland could specialize more and better coordinate on technology and purchases. But on its own, it needs to maintain a full defense machinery without outside help.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#173

Post by mike_hearn » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:22 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #97

While I agree with many of the sentiments in the article, I don't think a comparison of wages is entirely fair. Some small nations have an out-sized GDP per capita such as Switzerland, Luxembourg, and Singapore because of their large financial industries. These industries are possible because the countries attract wealth and the wealthy through very low taxes(like Singapore) or very strong banking secrecy laws. And w…

Swiss banking secrecy (or privacy, if you want a better sounding name) is pretty much over these days. The Americans killed it as part of their worldwide citizen taxation program (FATCA). The Swiss send all your banking data to the IRS directly now and have done for several years.

The financial industry is large but not outsized, relative to GDP. For instance it is a smaller component of the economy than in Ireland.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#174

Post by chimeracoder » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:23 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #143

chimeracoder wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And they all are known as tax havens except for Norway which has half a million dollars of oil reserves per citizen :). > But I do think the article is right in pointing out a lack of options in the U.S. if you want to live a lifestyle that doesn't center around work. This is the "option" of being both a very small and very rich state, which is simply not feasible. To put this into perspective, Norway is just over…

The oil doesnt' really make that much difference in Norway. They tend to keep most of the money in a state reserve to not create too much inflation. Subsitute Norway for non-oil Sweden, a country with huge immigration. Sure it's a small and "rich" country, but the cultural things like good work/life balance applies anyway. Edit: as was pointed out to me in another comment: this is using a loose definition of "life" w…

> The oil doesnt' really make that much difference in Norway. They tend to keep most of the money in a state reserve to not create too much inflation.

It absolutely does make a difference to have the world's largest sovereign wealth fund[0], as well as the economic status that allows you to leave it untouched. Simply having guaranteed future access to that kind of wealth changes your political and economic options today.

> Subsitute Norway for non-oil Sweden, a country with huge immigration

Sweden is also comparably small (same size as NYC proper), and much of the "huge immigration" comes from other Scandinavian countries or EU member states. Sweden refuses to publish data on ethnic backgrounds[0], but by all accounts it is overwhelmingly white[1]. Of the top ten countries of origin for Swedish immigrants, 6 are predominantly-white European countries, and the rest are countries with majority Muslim population[2]. Muslim immigrants in Sweden have on average a dramatically lower quality-of-life than the general Swedish population and compared to what is being discussed here. On top of that, they face incredible racism and xenophobia.

So if anything, this supports the point that allowing free migration (as all US cities do) brings average quality-of-life down, not up. (Or to put it another way, it's very easy to maintain a high quality-of-life when you have the freedom to exercise strict control over your borders).

[0] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24049876

[1] Manhattan, by contrast, was majority non-white for most of the 20th century, and only just surpassed 50% white in ~2011.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden#Populat...

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#175

Post by xyz03 » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:24 PM UTC

I'm Swiss and I have been working in the US for a few years and some prejudices resonate with me. However, there are also some explanations for this: Xenophobia: Swiss are probably less xenophobic than other countries I have experienced (including the US where I was mildly surprised about some things. Of course you shouldn't tell it loudly at your work-place). About one third of the population in Switzerland are foreigners and the number has been strongly increasing in the last few years. I think Swiss are fed up about "soldiers" (aka expats) and other foreigners that don't want to integrate. I had some bosses that didn't speak German and also didn't understand that some things are socially unacceptable. Unlike other countries, there is rarely violence towards foreigners. Banks: I worked in banking. Other countries do the same as Switzerland. When you go to a German bank just over the border as a Swiss until recently, they will tell you that you can hide your money there and tax authorities in Switzerland won't know. I won't speak of Delaware, Miami, Singapore, Hong Kong and all these other places. The US is well-know for having ambiguous policies. Bankers in Miami are specialized in taking money from Latin America. Prices: Prices are a lot higher for certain things. You can go shopping in Germany to save money. Some other items, e.g. electronics, are cheaper except for the US. Expect to pay high prices for rent, meat, vegetable, other fixed costs (health insurance, electricity etc.). However, the money left after your fixed costs is a lot more than the average person in another country. And to revert back to xenophobia, there are foreigners that somehow are unaware of the prices and accept low offers. Swiss don't like them very much. Working: I worked in New York (not the US I know). I worked on a fixed two-year contract, so I couldn't be terminated. My US colleagues had an at-will contract. I always thought it crazy what my colleagues were willing to put up with. When they got a better offer, they just disappeared within a few days. But I had to adapt because I was the foreigner and the Swiss nowadays also expect you better adapt and integrate (see xenophobia) or you better leave Switzerland. Although I lived in the US for some time, I'm a strong supporter of limiting the number of foreigners in Switzerland. It's not in Switzerland's interest but more in the interest of employers who try to take advantage of it.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#176

Post by seunosewa » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #84

pluckytree wrote: post #18

Interesting read but I think the author makes a false conclusion that taxes on wealth is better than taxes on income. If the US income-based tax system really were progressive in practice, then you could compare apples to apples. A wealth-based system could be just as non-progressive if there were similar ways around paying your fair share like there is in the US. Given systems that are equally difficult to circumven…

> But I think the Swiss succeed despite this because they have a much more compassionate view towards their fellow citizens From what I've heard, that is predominately only true so long as their fellow citizens are sufficiently "like them".

It's a human thing, not a Swiss thing. Which is why homogenous countries have more sane political systems.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#177

Post by Mikeb85 » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:28 PM UTC

WalterSear wrote: post #148

Mikeb85 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lower classes' standard of living is all that matters. If you're rich, you can live especially well even in 3rd world countries (where servants are cheap and anything can be paid for).

The world is not a dichotomy. There's a whole load of people between rich and poor who's standard of living can be poor, despite their relative wealth.

My point is that to measure a single country's progress, you need to measure the quality of life for the working class, minorities, retirees, etc...

That's why things like health care, transport infrastructure, PPP, median and average salaries, etc... are all factored in to quality of life rankings. And why the US isn't the best country to live in.

Obviously there's many people between homeless and billionaires, but I was responding to a post that claimed the US' quality of life was better because of the potential to live well.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#178

Post by brandonmenc » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:28 PM UTC

cjsthompson wrote: post #156

brandonmenc wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Face it you are the third world compared to Europe. Ooooh, those poor little jingoistic feewings are butthurt You seem to not know the actual definitions of "third world" and "jingoism."

And so now's the time when you are going to reveal to me the special case U.S. meaning of these words? I'll make it simple for you: U.S. society is nothing to be proud of and should not be looked up to as a model. Oh and by the way. What part of "compared to" do you not understand?

The OP's response was in no way jingoistic. I guess you were hurling the epithet at the US in general, which adds nothing to that particular conversation.

As for the somewhat racist term "third world," I assume you really meant "underdeveloped economy." Which, for all of the United States' problems, it is not. The UN puts our HDI in the top 5, and it's nearly equal to Switzerland's.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#179

Post by gpcz » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #65

gpcz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there isn't already an intricate system of landed class and privilege, who are "these folks over here" that give the money for the welfare and benefits?

The answer is "all of us", or at least in the very level and equal society that existed post-WW2. As outcomes become less equal, a smaller and smaller proportion of individuals foot that bill. We should expect that as that intensifies, some of those folks are going to look around and start asking where their hereditary and class privileges are.

Post-WW2 America had less income inequality than now, but it was far from a "very level and equal society."

In 1945, the share of the total income of the richest 1% was 11.07%, while in 2014 it was 17.85%. For the richest 10%, 32.64% in 1945 and 47.19% in 2014. A big chunk of the US segregated K12 schools and disenfranchised a race of people that politicians now use as a caricature in order to de-fund welfare programs. Women were kicked out of paying jobs after substantially contributing to the war effort because men came back and expected women to be homemakers.

The belief that post-WW2 America was some kind of glorious classless meritocracy is a myth. It just took a few decades of the natural self-reinforcing loops of capital to highlight the inequality that was already there.

Re: Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture

#180

Post by adventured » Sat, Aug 01, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

noja wrote: post #145

blfr wrote: post #41

"Driving Bentleys ruined me for BMWs and their poor make quality" Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. Not even Switzerland's neighbours (Italy, France, Germany) with people coming from the same populations can reproduce it. All these great states are tiny (8M people) outliers. There are more people enjoying work-life balance in America than al…

> Switzerland is one of... three maybe (Luxemburg, Norway) countries with higher standard of living than the US. You have to be kidding me. The average standard of living in the US is not the fourth best in the world. The US only got universal heathcare this century, it has a ludicrous work-life balance, the minimum wage in some states is very low (and sometimes includes tipping!), the infant mortality rate is lower…

In fact America does have one of the highest standards of living. It also has one of the highest median incomes, and among the highest disposable incomes.

OECD better life index:

http://i.imgur.com/ekhWXeG.png

Maternity leave is common in America. You are free to choose your job based on the benefits you desire, including vacation time and maternity leave.

Switzerland and Germany to name two, are famous for not having fully socialized healthcare systems, instead they blend private and public. Poor Americans have had universal healthcare for a lot longer than just this century, via Medicaid. US healthcare has only become particularly expensive in the last 15 years as costs have soared, prior to that the US had a very affordable, mostly private healthcare system.

The infant mortality rate in some third world countries is far more likely to be fraudulent, including in places like Cuba where they force abortions to artificially prop up their infant mortality rates.

The minimum wage in the US is set federally, and all states must at least meet that line. It's also likely to jump by ~50% nationally in the next few years, as major cities move to $11-$15 minimum wages. Italy for example has no minimum wage, and Germany just finally got one. Only 1% of American labor earns minimum wage. The median income of the bottom 25% of workers in America earn as much as the median income in all of Italy.