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Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

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Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#171

Post by kungfooguru »

peterfirefly wrote: post #142
jsprogrammer wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's a very clear difference between a country that comes out of two world wars, with everything all but destroyed, including millions dead. Which allows us to provide a further distinction: the country who had everything destroyed was directly responsible for that destruction. Yet, the debt that they racked up because they tried to take over eurasia while killing and torturing millions in the process, was forgiv…

> I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. Which reminds me... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War 158,000 killed due to those bloody stupid Communists :(

You mean damn those Greeks wanting to run their own lives? Something that was violently crushed and kept through an oppressive military junta?

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#172

Post by csallen »

interesting_att wrote: post #53

Everyone here seems to be criticizing Piketty for weird reasons. He is not saying post-war Germany's debt is the exact same thing as the current Greek crisis. Pointing out parallels isn't same thing as saying two situations are equivalent. His point is that this isn't a "moral" decision between two peoples. It's an economic decision between nations.

Thank you. When a specific comparison is made between two things, people are too quick to emotionally point out the obvious and irrelevant fact that some differences exist, too.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#173

Post by sdenton4 »

This all reminds me of what we've learned about forest management. You see, for a long time we thought that all forest fires were bad, and set out to extinguish fires whenever even a small one broke out in a forest. After a few decades of almost no fire, a huge amount of burnable debris collected in the forests, and now, when fires break out, they're gigantic and far, far more damaging than normal forest fires.

Likewise, central banks have been working very hard to keep interest rates near zero. Any interest is perceived to be a bad thing (the big piles of money held by the large private interests become relatively smaller under inflation), and has thus been held in check. Normally, when things go somewhat badly for a country, they can issue a bunch of bonds and inflate their currency a bit to take up the flack. But with the Euro, there's no opportunity for member countries to inflate their own currencies to smooth out the bumps, and strong pressure from the overall Eurozone to keep interest rates low. The normal control mechanisms are suppressed, leading to bigger explosions when things go really wrong...

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#174

Post by csallen »

vacri wrote: post #29

This guy is a reknowned economist? He's conflating "war reparations" with "external debt", and also seems to have missed the big fanfare recently when Germany paid the last of it's WWI reparations - instead he claims they never paid any WWI or WWII reparations. Similarly, 'England took 100 years to repay' he claims as the way forward, yet ignores that Germany took 92 to pay their WWI debt[1]. Not hard, I guess, since…

> He's conflating "war reparations" with "external debt"

War reparations are a type of debt. The terms aren't mutually exclusive. Nor is Piketty saying they are the exact same thing. I fail to see your point here.

> instead he claims they never paid any WWI or WWII reparations.

Where did he say never paid "any"? He very clearly outlines two methods of eliminating debt, and makes the case that Germany used the very method that it is now denying Greece.

Your post seems very straw-mannish.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#175

Post by johngalt »

alexqgb wrote: post #129
Tehnix wrote: post #86

I feel sorry for the Greek people, but I personally favour throwing them out of the Eurozone if they default on the debt. It will be a very dangerous signal to send that you can borrow money, and not pay it back without any retribution. This is particularly important since more countries are going in the same direction as Greece (I think Spain and Puerto Rico are close, but I might be wrong). Besides that, it also hu…

What you don't understand is that a debt represents a risk to the lender , not a guarantee. If a debt were a guarantee, then there would be no basis for charging interest. In a well regulated system, the people who make bad bets are not entitled to retribution. They are "entitled" (read: expected) to go out of business. At the very least, they suffer embarrassing losses that they must explain to their shareholders. "…

> If a debt were a guarantee, then there would be no basis for charging interest.

Time value of money?

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#176

Post by ajmurmann »

i_s wrote: post #132
HSO wrote: post #59

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9834721 . "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and…

> The theory of complex systems reminds us that aggregates can have properties that are not traceable to any individuals themselves. Game theory tells us that incentives and constraints can get so messed up that developments take on an eigendynamic which was nobody's intent nor interest. I'm interested in those ideas. Can you give a link to any information about them?

Awesome book by Nobel price winning Thomas Schelling: Micromotive and Macrobheavior http://www.amazon.com/Micromotives-Macrobehavior-Thomas-C-Sc...

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#177

Post by cb18 »

return0 wrote: post #134
HSO wrote: post #59

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9834721 . "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and…

You are not wrong, nationalism is making a big comeback in aging europe.

You are not wrong, nationalism is making a big comeback in aging europe.

As it should, with so many countries being invaded[0] by raping and pillaging hordes[1]. (I don't know what "an aging Europe" has to do with it, it's the older generation that has failed us, leaving it to us to avert disaster.)

[0] http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9560982/the-invasion-of-...

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2015/0617/Seeking-Refu...

"The jihadist forces, in solidarity with Daesh, have taken control of part of Libya, obviously seeking to organize a massive immigration toward Europe. In their minds, it is an invasion" http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-islamic-invasion...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+invasion+2015

"Refugees" in fact consist solely of military aged men http://www.europeanguardian.com/81-uncategorised/immigration...

[1] "As one police officer said to me, 'There isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children are not being sexually exploited.' We should start from the assumption that children are being sexually exploited right the way across the country." http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3846/britain-child-groomin...

"Jay's initial report published on 26 August 2014 revealed that the number of children sexually exploited in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013 was, by "conservative estimate", at least 1,400." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploit...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang

"Or the spike in rapes that now puts Sweden at #2 in the world. Or the #1 spot in the world for school arsons." http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/police-yes-there-are-no-g...

http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-officia...

"Last night was yet another flare-up in infamous Stockholm ghetto Tensta. A crowd of 50-something masked thugs were hurling rocks and molotov cocktails at police and fire fighters. But noone was killed and police only had to fire warning shots in the air, so no big deal. Ho-hum, in the “new normal” of Sweden." http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/23/riots-are-caused-by-polic...

http://en.europenews.dk/Sweden-Tops-Europe-for-Number-of-Rap...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=europe+rape+jihad

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#178

Post by agumonkey »

HSO wrote: post #59

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9834721 . "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and…

For what it's worth I thought the interview was moralizing too. I find it too much on the blame side, even though it's an attempt at being honest, but it's hard to consider post-war state and economic crisis. Also bringing back war isn't the best way to avoid nationalism.

Bringing a little more egoless theory in the picture is a nice idea.

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#179

Post by shoo »

luso_brazilian wrote: post #152
HSO wrote: post #59

At the risk of being a moralizing bore, may I remind everybody that "Germany", "Greece" etc. are not people, and that people are not countries? I am surprised by the national coloring, however faint, of some comments here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9834721 . "I am a German" or "Greek here" should have no relevance to the ideas put forth. "Your money" and "your banks" are not really "my money" and…

OK, I'll try to shed some light on why this subject tends to inflame some of the europeans nationalistic sentiment with a concrete example: 1. Meet Portugal (my country). Some may know us derisively as the P in PIGS because of our financial problems (much similar to the Greek one in nature and extent). In 2010 and 2011 as one of the 14 member states of the EU that were part of the Greek loan facility Portugal contrib…

Thank you for clearly explaining where some of the money came from, and pointing out this subtlety. It is perhaps interesting to compare Portugal's contribution to Germany's after crudely normalising by GDP:

* Portugal contributed about 0.48% of its GDP in loans, compared to Germany's contribution of around 0.41%.

* Portugal's GDP / capita is a bit less than than half of that of Germany

Re: Thomas Piketty: “Germany has never repaid.”

#180

Post by mattmcknight »

rtpg wrote: post #150
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. So, why again should we forgive the debts of those responsible for killing and torturing millions, but not those of a country who has done nothing comparable? Because the Treaty of Versailles was tried the first time, to penalize Germany with onerous debts for starting WW1, and WW2 was the direct result. A…

And austerity has been shown to be a remarkable failure for any form of economic recovery not just the first, but pretty much every time any country has tried it Why would you try it on Greece then?

How would you define austerity for the Greece? To have public spending at 58% of GDP?
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