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Science’s Biggest Fail

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Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#171
post #146
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about cases where prestigious scientific institutions have deeply held and advanced utterly wrong ideas for decades? Nutritional science is particularly bad in this regard. The recommendations that were advanced from (roughly) the 70s through the 90s lead to obesity and heart disease. One thing in particular comes to mind: margarine. I understand the nature of scientific theory, and that scientific theory is not…

Speaking of recommendations that lead to heart disease, three sarcastic cheers for massively understating the risks associated with abstinence from alcohol. Mostly I just hear "moderate consumption is associated with some health benefits", which isn't anywhere close to conveying the findings (questionable, as always!) that not drinking is almost as risky as "heavy" drinking. Especially considering that you practicall…

FYI: In regard to articles published in the Daily Mail about cancer research results, alcohol is still in the mixed camp, but leaning toward 'causes cancer'.

beer both causes and prevents cancer (1 prevents: 5 causes) - http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/a-z/b#term52

wine both causes and prevents cancer (not counting dups - 14 prevents : 17 causes) - http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/a-z/w#term234

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#172
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blame is misplaced here, though. There's no real avenue for science to interact with the public currently (except for /r/AskScience, which is a terrific development). A vast majority of the misleading described is perpetuated by news headlines ending in question marks and "doctors" with mail order degrees trying to sell books. If there's any blame to be placed on scientific institutions it's not that they are bad…

What about cases where prestigious scientific institutions have deeply held and advanced utterly wrong ideas for decades? Nutritional science is particularly bad in this regard. The recommendations that were advanced from (roughly) the 70s through the 90s lead to obesity and heart disease. One thing in particular comes to mind: margarine. I understand the nature of scientific theory, and that scientific theory is not…

"...they must accept higher energy costs and possibly a reduced standard of living in order to combat a threat they cannot directly perceive."

That's a tough one. From the perspective of a person whose livelihood depends on CO2-producing resources, or for whom the additional cost would push them into poverty, I can't blame them for feeling resistant - particularly when there is still debate as to the veracity, credibility and authenticity of the science. On the other hand, what if the climate scientists are correct? The idea that we must immediately take action or risk consequences ranging from disruption to extinction is terrifying.

It is my hope that rather than forcing a small segment of the population to fall on their swords for the rest of us, we could instead transition gently to alternatives. This requires that we heavily invest in research and development for renewable sources in addition to providing tax incentives so that this reaches price parity with fossil-fuel-derived energy. I think that's very doable, but it means making this a priority; this is why Palin's "drill baby, drill" instantly lost my vote.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#173
> So how is a common citizen supposed to know when science is “done” and when it is halfway to done which is the same as being wrong?

Forget about the common citizen, the scientists themselves don't know when science is "done". This is the problem of induction and most scientist are completely ignorant of the issue because they dismiss epistemology and, more generally, philosophy as nonsense. So they implicitly or explicitly substitute "consensus" for truth which is a horrible mistake.

BTW, I don't agree that getting halfway is the same as being "wrong", science is a process after all and unlike Zeno's paradox the state of scientific knowledge is not always half-way to its target, Karl Popper's claims to the contrary notwithstanding.

> I’m on the side that says climate change, for example, is pretty much what science says it is because the scientific consensus is high.

The problem here is complicated by government funding of science and positive feedback that only "consensus" consistent research gets funding. Sure there is window-dressing "opposition research" but its purpose is not the truth but to justify the consensus. Science has become politicized by the use of government money and that's why things such as global warming have become political hot buttons. There is a lot of money and power at stake and people want to fly the flag of "science" to achieve their political goals. When politics and science mix, bad things result. cf. Soviet Union.

> And we all know that studies funded by private industry are suspect.

I think this true today but that it is wrong. The tacit, unspoken assumption behind these suspicions is that government funding is NOT suspect and free from all biases. I think that that is logically and historically false. Certainly revealing ones funding is important because funding can be a source of bias but in the end science should stand on its own merit regardless of the source.

I think Scott Adams has named something that has been going on for decades now which is that the American people rightfully no longer trust science and scientists. Part of this mistrust is a product of the rising anti-technology luddites, religion and the opposition to reason in the culture as he points out. But like Adams I think that the distrust of science has also been earned and I believe it is because of the politicization of science via government funding. The leaked emails in Climategate revealed that maybe the scientists were not being so objective after all. The clearest evidence of dishonesty that I read was that in public the pro global-warming scientists would call for the opposition to publish their results and arguments in peer reviewed journals. In the background they were actively working to block the publication of such research or boycott any journals that did so.

It is now considered "scientific" to dismiss your opponents with ad hom "climate denier" labels, secretly politic to limit dissent and smear the opposition as anti-science morons (the implication that Adams was addressing) and using political marketing tricks like changing the name from "global warming" to "climate change" to make the opposition look like fools. These are the methods of a Karl Rove or James Carville not science nor scientists. This is not science.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#174

I have a simple criterion for a summary judgement of the reliability of results: a) Is the data made available? b) Is it a Bayesian analysis? c) Has a power study been offered? As a statistician, I have a keen awareness of the ways that p-values can depart from truth. You can see Optimizely's effort to cope ( https://www.optimizely.com/statistics ). You can read about it in The Cult of Statistical Significance ( http…

I've encountered way too much "It must be good because its Bayes!", too much "It's Bayes because I used MCMC, ignore my flat uninformative prior..." etc. to put much stock in that as a metric.

I'm also involved in enough medical research where data just can't ethically be made available that, well...you and I clearly disagree.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#175
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The view on Fat moved a lot less than you might think. People used to eat a lot of fat which we still think is a bad idea. More recently we found that eating too little fat was also a bad idea. As to dietary guidelines, if you pick a target for a 2,000 calorie diet and someone on a 5,000 calorie a day diet tries to hit that same target there is a clear miscommunication going on. And yes, you can eat a relatively heal…

Your post is full of the science that people no longer trust. There is plenty of evidence that fat doesn't cause weight gain or heart attacks, and that exercise doesn't lead to weight loss because it makes you hungry. I don't know the correct answer, but I know there is a lot of uncertainty now, and there seemed to be no uncertainty in the food pyramid days.

Exercise on its own doesn't lead to weight loss (in order to burn the necessary calories, you'd have to be exercising all day long), but it is not uncommon for exercise to suppress appetite, thereby reducing the calories in component of the weight loss equation. Unless of course hunger signals are being ignored, as in the case of unconscious, binge, or comfort eating.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#176
post #164
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of recommendations that lead to heart disease, three sarcastic cheers for massively understating the risks associated with abstinence from alcohol. Mostly I just hear "moderate consumption is associated with some health benefits", which isn't anywhere close to conveying the findings (questionable, as always!) that not drinking is almost as risky as "heavy" drinking. Especially considering that you practicall…

Do you have any decent sources on that one?

Didn't hang onto any links, sorry. The stuff I saw will probably turn up in a search for "alcohol" and "total mortality", though.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#177
post #16

Doing science is a lot like making sausages. There's a lot of conjecture, hypothesizing, testing, making observations, generating theories, testing those theories, throwing out the ones that don't hold up to repeatable studies. I don't think nutrition is unique in that matter. Where it differs from other sciences are: 1. The general public is very interested in the results, and so there's a lot of motivation for peop…

And that is how it works until it gets the public's attention. Then it becomes something else entirely. Once people start looking to "science" for a policy recommendation, the dialogue immediately becomes polarized and extreme.

No one in the public discourse is saying our thinking on vaccinations is being continuously refined. No one is publicly urging caution and moderation in evaluating the risks and benefits, or calling for better longitudinal studies. Instead, on the one had, you have the white house saying "the science is clear," people calling anti-vaxers morons on social media, and on the other side people yelling that its poison pushed by a global conspiracy. Whatever calm, analytic discussions are being held behind closed doors at the NIH, the public discourse has degenerated into a screaming match.

Adam's problem with that is that the pro-science people are screaming just as loudly as their opponents... but they should be the ones that know better! Unfortunately, people of a certain age have seen dogmatic claims from "the scientific community" before, and then seen those claims be overturned and reversed countless times. That's a problem. If you really are "pro-science" you should ALWAYS be couching your recommendations in uncertain terms, but there are lots of demagogues out there doing exactly the opposite.

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#178
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adams wasn't criticizing science's updating of beliefs on new evidence. He was criticizing the practice of shouting "Hey! We're ultra-certain about this! Very important! You've got to do this!" when the truth was more like, "We kind of have some preliminary evidence this might be bad for you, stay tuned." (And I don't buy the claim that it's just the media overblowing this; why weren't the national academies of scien…

>>He was criticizing the practice of shouting "Hey! We're ultra-certain about this! Very important! You've got to do this!" when the truth was more like, "We kind of have some preliminary evidence this might be bad for you, stay tuned." This is almost always a result of the "Science News Cycle." http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?n=1174 Aside from that, there's a lot of pressure on scientists to produce actionable r…

Also relevant: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1623#comic

Re: Science’s Biggest Fail

#179
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it would appear that scientists did, in fact, kick everyone in the balls for 20 years: http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/2014/6/the-s... Perhaps it was accidental in most cases. However, in the field of medical studies, the withholding of studies with negative outcomes (and their data) could be rightly described as "highly unscrupulous" researcher behavior. And this has apparently been de rige…

There's a big difference between being able to find instances of people doing this kind of thing, and widespread hacking of results. I think it's a given that it goes on sometimes, especially in cases where there is financial motive for doing so. But as far as it being a widespread issue? I have never seen evidence of that.

Beyond that, there's people actively working on ways to correct for publication bias in meta-analysis, to the point that it's a pretty fundamental aspect of any proper analysis.
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